Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast, we're talking with David Scott from Maryland.
David's a personal trainer, he's been helping people for many years, and he has an audience he wants to serve of men in their 40's and 50's who are starting to, as he calls it, fend off father time.
We talked a lot about the needs of people in this area. He already has a lead magnet that's gathering leads for around $2, so we talked about how to treat that engagement, nurture the opt in, and try and engage with as many people as he can, to ultimately think through what is it we're ultimately going to be able to help these people with.
Once you crack the code of understanding the conversation, then you can scale it.
This is a great call to think through this exercise, and about the needs of one particular audience.
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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 194
Dean: David.
David: Mr. Jackson, how are you doing today?
Dean: I am good. How are you?
David: I can't complain at all. I'm good.
Dean: Well, that's a good thing. Where are you calling in from?
David: I'm calling from about half an hour outside of Washington, D.C. in southern Maryland.
Dean: Okay, perfect. Is everything on lockdown up there?
David: We went into lockdown March 17, and I guess about three, maybe four weeks ago, things started to lighten up a little bit.
There are still some restrictions in place. We're still social distancing. Masks are still required in places like grocery stories and that kind of thing. Dining out is either outside or the tables have spaced apart pretty -
Dean: Pretty big, yeah.
David: I think we're slowly coming out of it, but who knows at this point? In my industry, in the fitness industry, one of my mentors, his gym was closed for 14 weeks. He opened for three weeks, did everything the CDC told him he was supposed to do, and then fate decided to rescind that and shut everybody back down again.
Dean: Yeah, wow.
David: You know, it's-
Dean: Yeah, that's crazy. If you think about it, the gyms and restaurants have really been... That's a major impact, because that definitely involves getting together with people in close quarters.
David: Sure, sure.
Dean: Yeah. Well, let's talk about what you've got going on, and what you're hoping we can focus on today.
David: Okay. Well, the big nut I want to try to crack today is, I want to pick your brain about how to go about researching what a target market's needs are. And just to give you a little bit of the backstory, I've been a personal trainer for almost 25 years now. In that span of time, I've worked with everybody from an eight-year-old child to a Division I athlete to men and women in their 70s and 80s, so a pretty broad range of experience. And at the beginning of the year, my wife and I made the decision, we wanted to get out of me spending so much time working with people face-to-face and move our business more online, and do less coaching and more providing fitness products, so to speak, in terms of programming and that type of thing. I'd still like to keep some virtual clients, some coaching. I'd like to keep my hand in that, but we would like the bulk of our business to come from sold programs.
Dean: Okay.
David: And the target market that I'd like to really hone in on is that guy over 40 who maybe has a family and a career and commitments, and maybe has got a little mileage on his joints, and the stuff that worked for him when he was 20 just isn't working anymore, if that makes sense.
Dean: Yeah, or maybe he abandoned the stuff he was doing in his 20s during his 30s, and now he's got some more stability and ready to get back. Yeah, I could see, uh-huh (affirmative).
David: So I've got a lead magnet out there that's slowly but consistently drawing in new contacts, but I really-
Dean: Tell me about that and who you're approaching, what the lead magnet is. Tell me everything about that.
David: Okay. The lead magnet is... Let me pull it up here real quick. "Three Simple Exercises That Will..." I'm sorry. My WiFi's a little slow this morning for some reason. I'm bringing the landing page up.
Dean: Okay, no problem.
David: "Three Simple Exercises to Fend Off Father Time." And on the landing page is "Three Remarkably Simple Exercises to Unlock Youthful Strength and Injury-Proof Your Joints." And we've put an ad out through Facebook that brings people back to this page, and they leave their email address and then they get a PDF emailed to them that they can then open up. Within the PDF, there's descriptions of these three simple exercises, as well as links to videos that they can go watch on how to perform them correctly.
Dean: Okay.
David: And... Go ahead.
Dean: So who are you targeting for this ad? How are you setting up your filters? Who's your audience for this?
David: We initially started aiming that at men between the ages of 45 and 65, and it seemed to do best with guys in the 55-to-65 category, which is a little older than what I was initially aiming for.
Dean: Right.
David: I feel like where I am right now is... I feel like if I could figure out a way to research what that guy in his 40s really wants, I'd be able to figure out to reach out to him better.
Dean: Tell me how much is the cost to you to generate that lead.
David: It's costing about 10 cents per click, if that helps.
Dean: Well, what I want to know is how many clicks does it take, then, to get a lead, so how much are you spending for an email address? Because that's the end result here. The clicks don't mean anything.
David: It's between a dollar and $2.
Dean: Okay. So that-
David: From what I've been told, that's not a bad price.
Dean: No, that's a great price, actually. So yeah, that's awesome. So when you look at that, what kind of volume are you able to do? How many leads are you able to generate?
David: On average, I'm getting at least one new email address a day, which again, it's slow but it's steady, so -
Dean: What's your assets? Are you setting your budget at $3 a day?
David: Yes.
Dean: Okay, so $100 per month, basically.
David: Well, actually, technically it's $1 a day, but I've got three of the same ad that's been deployed.
Dean: I got you, okay.
David: That make sense?
Dean: All right, yeah.
David: So I've got three versions of the same ad, and they're both set at $1 a day.
Dean: Okay. Have you ever done anything crazy, like try $10 a day? What I'm curious about is, is that scalable? Or if you're getting the least-amount-that-you-could-get kind of thing.
David: Stuff I ran-
Dean: Yeah, like I wonder if it's just showing your ads, because it's all the marketplace type of thing, right?
Dean: So what I'm curious about, is that sustainable at 10 or $20 a day, depending on how that goes. But with any event, you've got something right now that is getting you leads for 1 to $2, so the unit that I like to look at for lead conversion, because that's what it really comes down to, it's two different parts, right? You've got to generate the leads, but then there's the conversion process into whatever it is, wherever you're going to direct those leads, right?
So I like to look at them in cohorts or bundles. Say right now, with your current thing, you're going to spend $200 for a bundle of 100 leads. That's the way I look at this. Now, it may take you 100 days to get those 100 leads at that pace, but whatever it is, we look at if you could just fast-forward and get those 100, now what happens with those? How many leads have you generated so far overall?
David: 150 off of this.
Dean: Okay, perfect. In how long of a time?
David: Let me see... It's been around four months.
Dean: Okay. 150 leads in four months, so I was about right that it was about 90 or 100 days to generate 100 leads, right?
David: Yes.
Dean: Okay. All right. And so what's happened so far with those 150 leads that you've generated right now?
David: Well, I've been emailing that list, adding them to emails. I kind of came into this with a little bit of a nest egg of emails from clients that I've trained over the years, and it's adding them to that list. I email that list three times a week, every Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
Dean: Okay, nice.
David: But I haven't converted any of that to sales for the most part, and that's what makes me think, okay, I need to figure out how to get them to tell me what it is they need, and what is the challenge, and-
Dean: Tell me about the first 24 or 48 hours here when somebody opts in, what is your experience? I'll let you tell me what's happening right now when somebody opts in, and then we'll talk about that timeframe quickly.
David: So once they opt in, after they get the free download, there's a series of four emails that will come after that. Basically it gives them a rundown on the training philosophy that I tend to favor, and I try to let them see that through a lens of how it would benefit them.
Dean: Okay. So describe it to me. Give me the music of how that might sound. So they come in, and when do they get the first email? Right away or is it the next day? Are they immediately into the three emails a week, or do they get these four emails first?
David: They get those four emails first before they kind of get mixed... general population.
Dean: Perfect, okay. So in these four emails, how far apart are they?
David: Two days.
Dean: Okay. And so do I get the first one immediately or do I get it the next day or two days later?
David: It's the next day.
Dean: Next day.
David: Within about a week they get cycled through those first four emails.
Dean: Okay. And then another one, another one. What would be the examples of the subject line of those emails?
David: Let me pull that up. I feel like I should know these things off the top of my head, but...
Dean: That's okay. I'm curious, what I'm looking for is to kind of recreate the experience of it, you know?
David: Gotcha.
Dean: Yeah, so when I look at it, and it'll make sense once I understand the context here, what kind of impact this... So, the next day, the first email comes. It comes from you? Or does it come from a company or it comes from your... Who's in the 'from' deal? Is it from David, or is it from your fitness, the main name, or who's the email from?
David: It's from our fitness company. Or from our fitness company, Fork and Bell Studios.
Dean: Okay.
David: Or Fork and Bell Fitness is the name of it actually.
Dean: Okay. So when I'm imagining showing up in my email stream here on my iPhone, the from field is going to say, "Fork and Bell," is that what it's call it?
David: Yes, sir.
Dean: Okay, "Fork and Bell Fitness" it says. And then the subject line is... Do you remember any of them?
David: I've got the email sitting in front of me, but for some reason that doesn't have the subject line on it.
Dean: Okay. So describe the email to me then. What's the content? What's the tone and how does it say? Is it personalized or is it an article type of...
David: I can read it. I can read you the first couple of lines here.
Dean: Yeah, perfect.
David: It says, "Hey, man. Thanks for signing up for the Fork and Bell Fitness queue. I'm guessing that you signed up because you want to get stronger, get leaner, and avoid getting hurt in the process. If you're like me, you know your way around the gym, but the step that worked when you were younger..." and then there's some bullet points, "The high volume workouts, the high intensity sessions, the peddle-down approach, well just doesn't work quite the same anymore. In some cases I'd be willing to bet that those old ways do more harm than good. Does this sound familiar? But you're not ready to give up yet. You're not ready to throw in the towel. You don't necessarily believe that your best days are behind you. I don't think so either, because if you were, you probably wouldn't be reading this."
Then it says, "I get it. I really do. I've had my share of bumps and bruises in search of getting stronger and being a better version of who I am, the nicks, the dings, the injuries, but there's a better way. We will help you to recreate with the strength that your body was designed to have, one that will deliver you the physical freedom that has maybe been lacking, and that you might have thought was gone forever, one that will show you that hitting a certain decade of life doesn't have to define who you are physically. And it's based on three very simple, but important, principles."
And then I go on to tell them what the principles are, "Practice what you want to be strong at, leave a little of a tank, listen to your body." And then over the next three emails, I go in a little bit more in depth to each of those principles.
Dean: So how does that one end, that email? Does that email end with, "I'll be back in a couple days with another tip?" What are you instructing them now to do at the end?
David: It says, "Over the next three emails, I'll explain each of these principles and why they're so important." And then I say, "Here's what I want you to do next: I want you to decide what your goal is going to be, what are you training for, what is your why. Keep an eye out for the next email. Read that email when it comes and apply what's in that email to the goal above." And then I just say, "Deal? Have a great day and we'll talk soon." And then I signed it.
Dean: Okay. All right. So that's a lot. I want to imagine that is about concept here, that the next three emails I'm assuming, are going deeper into those three things that you talked about, right?
David: That is correct.
Dean: Okay, so then it's like, "This is what that means." And then more instructions, "Here's what you do today," kind of thing? Or, "I'll be back tomorrow and we'll unpack this one"? That kind of progressive thing?
David: Yes, sir.
Dean: And then is there a grand finale at the end where you say... Is there some point where you make an offer to somebody?
David: You know what? There's no offers in the final ones here.
Dean: Okay. Okay. So part of the thing is knowing... Where you really want to think about this opportunity here is to imagine that your opt-in page is a magic portal to your office, and as soon as they press submit... or your studio, your facility there, as soon as they press submit, your studio, they open the door, stick their head in and say, "Hey, I'm here about the Fending off Father Time book." And how would you have that conversation with that person, in person? Because the way that you described to me there is really you're sending an email broadcast from a business to a person who's opted in. It's not a dialogue, it's a monologue, right? You are basically up on the stage presenting this to people, right?
David: Gotcha.
Dean: You're making assumptions about them. You're putting words in their mouth. You're saying, "You're probably..." this, this, this. Where it would be very interesting if you had take those as an opportunity to engage with people in a conversation. And you're not doing it at such high volume that it would be impractical. You could really have that conversation, yeah. And so the things that you want to look at are, imagine what would you say someone who pops their head into your office to ask for that report.
David: I know exactly-
Dean: -, so let's look at that. What would you say?
David: Well, let's say for example, Dean, let's say that you walked into the studio and said, "Hey, I'm here about the Fending off Father Time," I would just say, "Well, what's your biggest challenge? What's the biggest hurdle that you're trying to get over fitness-wise?"
And I would try to ask a series of open-ended questions like that, that would get you to tell me more about what it is that you want.
Dean: Yes, and that's the thing. You're right on in the way that you're thinking about this, in this dialogue. Now we need to translate that into your emails. So if I'm saying, "The thing that we're looking at is..." I base all of my things on a couple of principles. - talk about it, like a last year's net, I base everything on the expectation based on studies of my own experience that 50 - about anything are going to buy what it is they've inquired about within the next two years. And that's my come-from, right?
I look at it that I'm looking to nurture elevation ship with 100 prospects, a bundle of 100, for 100 weeks. That's what I'm looking for. So I'm playing looking at that as an investment, that that group of 100 people, I'm bonding with them. Now, the challenge with email addresses is that you don't know just by looking at their email address which ones are going to be the ones that buy, the ones that are interested, or are, what I call 'five-star prospects.' And the five-star prospects are people who are willing to engage in a dialogue, they're friendly and cooperative, they know what they want, they'd like to get it now, and they would like us to help them. All five of those things have to be true in order for us to go into a paid relationship with somebody, or a collaboration with someone.
And it makes the most sense since they have to be all five, to start with are they willing to engage in a dialogue. So we know that before they asked for the report, because they asked for it, we know that they're interested in this topic of Fending off Father Time. So when you're engaging with someone, open questions are a little harder to get somebody to engage with initially, especially in email. What we look for is it might be a good idea to have a sorting question, something that would say, "Are you this or that?" Which is easy for somebody to respond to, right? Or something that is they know it off the top of their head, they don't have to write a lot. Because all we're trying to do is get that dialogue, open up the channel.
So on our real estate websites we have to use, if somebody comes in searching for homes, we'll send out an email that says, "Hi, David. Welcome aboard. Are you an investor or are you looking for a house to live in?" Which is easy now for somebody to say, "Oh, I'm this." But they're not committing to anything yet. Or we did a book called The Adult Acne Cure, and when people downloaded that, it was, "Hi, David. Welcome aboard. How often do you get breakouts?" Simple questions that they can quantify or more in a direction that gives you some insight.
On other fitness websites we've done things, "Hi, David, are you looking to lose fat or gain muscle?" What would be, if you were thinking about it, a sorting question that might make sense for these guys?
David: I think that you could start with something like, "Are you looking to gain muscle or lose fat?" I just put out on my Facebook page-
Dean: That doesn't seem related to the specificity about fending off Father Time, right?
David: Right.
Dean: You might even have something friendly in there saying, "Have you had an injury or is it just things getting creaky?" Or something that would be a nod to that we're not... Because you know everybody in there is 45 to 65 so there are some things starting to creak.
David: Yeah, 100% of personal trainers work with injuries.
Dean: Okay.
David: They understand that he's going to have at least a client, if not more, that's using something that's been banged up before.
Dean: Maybe that's it. Maybe there's a little bit that might be a simple question like, "Have you had an injury or are you just dealing with natural wear and tear, or high mileage?" Or whatever. Something that would just kind of make it feel like you're a real person, and it's coming from David, not from the company.
David: Okay.
Dean: Right.
David: So, Dean, one of the questions that I have with this, with that lead magnet, is it hitting the right... I'm wondering if I'm being effective in targeting the group that I want to look for.
Dean: Right, that's a good question.
David: Because it seems like the guys that this has the most traction with, that lead magnet has the most traction with are in that 55 to 65 range. And I'm thinking more... and maybe this is because I'm viewing it through my own lens because I'm 45 this year, so I think that's maybe one of the reasons I feel called to work with this group is because I'm kind of walking with them.
Dean: I get it. I know it's interesting, there's a difference. So I just turned 54, and there's a definite difference between 54 and 44. I can feel it. And it's an interesting thing, because at 44 you're still sort of youthful, you know? I think. I'm just noticing more brittleness or more... I don't know what the right thing is, yeah.
David: And just speaking personally, at 45, sometimes I think I'm still close enough to the... I can still see the light from 25.
Dean: Yeah, I'm assuming you're in great shape as a fitness professional.
David: Right.
Dean: So you've maintained that, right?
David: Right.
Dean: So I think that it depends, there's two different types of 45, the ones who have been active all the way, and it's just natural slowing down, there's often the stuff that they can't do that they were doing just even 10 years ago, let alone in their 20s, just a natural slow down of that. But then there's also the guys who haven't kept up with things from their 20s, were active in their 20s, and then kind of let it slide in their 30s and into 40s. So all of a sudden they're into a situation where they've gained five pounds a year for the last 10 years, and they're at 50 pounds overweight. That's a... I'm sure you've - people in that situation, right?
David: Right. That sounds like another sorting question.
Dean: Yeah, it is.
David: Because they might have been working out consistently for the last 20 years, and now is realizing, "Okay, my shoulder makes this weird noise when I do this exercise that I've done for the last 20 years."
Dean: Yeah, yeah.
David: Versus the guy who has been on the couch or in the office chair for 20 years and is now trying to get into it.
Dean: Yes, that's it. Now he's got a little more control of his life. But I think there's definitely a... 45 is definitely the age where you start to feel like, "I can still turn this around," kind of thing, you know? They're all saying, "Get back in shape," right? It's funny, I heard some comedian talk about that. Everybody's talking about, "Get back in shape," like they were ever in shape. It's just funny. So you look at it, and if your offer for people is going to involve this specific group of people, you need to make sure that it's the right thing. Where are you heading with these people? So you're saying that you want to get away from personally working with them into what is your offer.
David: Well, what I'm doing right now is it's a mix of coaching people in person and remotely.
Dean: Okay.
David: And what I want to build towards, or what I want to move into is a series of downloadable programs that fit different goal sets.
Dean: Yeah.
David: Does that make sense?
Dean: Yeah.
David: So it's an eight week simple strength training program that will allow you to get stronger without beating up your joints. Or maybe to get leaner, again, without taking up three hours in a gym that you might have had at 20, but at 45 with a family, you can't afford to put that much time into it. Again, I think that's part of figuring out what it is they want, and then I can craft a solution for them based off of that.
I do know that as a business, my wife and I want to be what we call 'geographically-free.'
Dean: Yes.
David: We've got one small child, she's not in school yet. Our oldest is being homeschooled coming into this year for lots of different reasons, COVID being one of them. If we want to pick up and go rent an RV and take a three-week road trip, we'd like to be able to do that.
Dean: Yeah, of course.
David: And so the bulk of our business being tied to interaction whether it's on Zoom or in-person or in-studio kind of prohibits that. So what I'd like to be able to do is give people tools that they can then use to accomplish whatever fitness goal it is that they're looking for.
Dean: Yeah. Have you been able to do that yet?
Have you been able to do that yet?
David: No.
Dean: Right. Part of this thing, what you need to, in order to make that dream a reality, then you need to figure out that the first and foremost thing is that you have to be able to actually get the result for people.
David: Oh, as far as getting the result, I'm confident in my ability to do that.
Dean: Okay. But that's what I'm asking is have you done it?
David: Yes.
Dean: Remotely like that for somebody?
David: The clients that we're working with remotely right now are getting good results. Maybe this is another issue that I needed to bounce off you, but they don't fit into this category. Demographically, most of my primary, what I would call 'five-star testimonials' are going to come from women.
Dean: Right.
David: The process that I would take a guy through that I'm taking some of these women through isn't dramatically different.
Dean: Okay. The question that I always ask people, that gives you as a thinking exercise to go through this is, what would you do if you only got paid if they get the result?
David: Yeah, I've heard you say that before and I've [crosstalk 00:39:36] that process...
Dean: Yeah, and so part of the thing is that you have to look at what are you willing to do. So let's imagine yourself in the RV, do you mean... Are you looking to deliver the result hands-off without you, or you just looking to be able to geographically be in another area? Or are you saying you want it to happen asynchronously without your involvement that they're able to get the result?
David: I want to provide them with tools for them to be able to do it themselves.
Dean: Okay.
David: And if that means me creating a series of videos to go along with the workouts that walk them through, okay, this is what the nutrition is going to have to be if this is what your end goals is.
Dean: Yes.
David: And have a conversation via that video so to speak.
Dean: And what do you think that the people that you work with, because now you're in a situation that the bigger thing that you have to overcome is compliance.
Right, that somebody's going to actually do, and follow the plan that you follow. What's been your experience with that in general?
David: It depends on the person.
Dean: Yeah.
David: That guy who is used to working out that is finding that the stuff that used to work for him doesn't work quite as well, is probably going to be more likely to follow something like this than the guy who is getting up off the couch for the first time. I think mostly because the second guy doesn't have the habit of exercise built in yet.
Dean: Right.
David: And that gentleman may need more... I'm going to use the term 'hand-holding,' and I don't mean it in a negative way, but he may need somebody to literally walk this with him, whether there's through Zoom call, through emails, texts, phone calls, whatever, he may need somebody to-
Dean: And that may not be your best client then in that.
David: Right.
Dean: We were just talking about this, Joe Polish and I did that on a marketing meetup Zoom a couple of days ago. And we were talking about Tony Horton. We were talking about the P90X guys. The information and the workouts, that's easy to put all that together. Let me out of it. They were trying to get to where trying to make it easy for the person, trying to convince them, "It's easy, you just need to get up and gently move," and all this stuff.
When they flip the switch and they turned towards the people that are already super fit and almost challenged them in a way, the P90X insanity, and all these things, almost daring them to try to get through it, like, "You'll never get through this." They were getting to the people who know the value of working out, that believe you can only get a great workout at a gym and that they're going to the gym constantly. But if they knew that they could get a great workout at home, and not have to go to the gym, that would be all for it, because the time element of it. That is when everything took off, when they were speaking to the people who were already... because there's millions of people who are already super fit and super into fitness. It's already baked in to their life, you know?
And sometimes that... Because it feels like trying to save the people or convince the people who are, what John Carlton would call, "Some ambulant sloth," which is as a nation what we've become. Things to get them up off the couch is the frustrating thing, takes a lot of momentum.
David: I can tell you that the knock on P90X that I've heard from other people in this industry is that it's not the workouts themselves. It's do you know anybody that's actually finished it. Do you know anybody that's actually gone the 90 days? Just looking at the programs themselves, the programs are great.
Dean: Yes.
David: For a lot of folks, it's the actual doing, getting them unglued from the couch and getting them to actually do stuff.
Dean: Yeah, that's exactly right. That's my point to you. That's my point to you, that I would say that when you and P90X, they're not invested or care whether somebody finished it, because they're just selling it to you, right? They've removed from the actual making sure that people take action and do it, you know? Much like you're saying. You're saying that you want to provide the information and let that do the stuff, but that's... You're essentially then removing yourself from the accountability equation or from making it synchronous.
The reason that people work out consistently with a trainer is because they're paying the trainer to meet them there and it builds in the synchronous and scheduled accountability of it, right?
David: Right.
Dean: Whereas people left to their own don't follow a regime or don't follow a system or schedule or have as much difficult with it, I guess, right?
David: Right.
Dean: Yeah. So that's why I was asking you whether you had successfully been able to do that because it's going to be an important part that you... in order to excite people by it, to be able to get the results sort of thing. I wonder about if right now you're doing some kind of hybrid, right?
Is that what you're ultimately offering the 150 people who've downloaded that report right now, what have you been offering them to do? In your three-times-a-week emails, are you inviting them to become a client? What's the offer for them?
David: When I do make offers, it's either wrapped around becoming a training client, mostly just because we need... Right now, as the sole bread winner in the family, we have our financial considerations that have to be met there. But the other offer is what we call the Daily Bell, and that's just a daily exercise regime that they can have access to either through their email, so the workout gets emailed to them on a daily basis, or there's an app they can download, so they can go to it right from their phone. And with the app, as they're using it they can see video demonstrations of each of the exercises.
There's a place for them to enter in their results, what they did, you know, an overhead press with this much weight for this many repetitions. And then I can see all of that stuff on the other end of that. Even for the folks who get the workout in an email, there's a link at the bottom of the email where they can go onto a website for them to do all of the same things or to see all the same videos if they need it. And that... Go ahead.
Dean: Do you charge for that? Okay.
David: They're both monthly fees.
Dean: Okay. How much is that?
David: The Daily Bell is 35 a month.
Dean: Okay. Got it. Okay. I think that's awesome then. Do you have people taking you up on that, because that can be a nice transition.
David: I've got 17 people that are signed up for that right now.
Dean: Okay. And it's all asynchronous? There's no live element to it?
David: Nope. All the workouts are programmed in there. About once a month I'll go in there and I'll update those. I program about a month out for them.
Dean: Okay.
David: I can see when they're doing the workouts, when the workouts have been done, I can see it on my end. Just yesterday for instance, there's one lady who I hadn't seen anything from her, so I just casually reached out to her just to say, "Hey, how are you? Is there anything I can do to help?" just to touch bases. But that program's not built on that, if that makes sense. The program is really, "Here's a set of tools for you to safely get more fit, move well, get stronger," all of those kind of things.
Dean: I love it. Everybody gets the same workout?
David: Yup. Within that program there are three different options.
There's a what we call 'Just Bells,' and that's for that person who's just got a modest collection of kettlebells.
There's 'Bells and Body Weight.' That is for the person who has a little more robust collection of kettlebells and maybe a pull up bar, a dip station. You know, kind of one of those things that has the pull up and the dip Roman chair thing. You can get them in almost every sporting good store. And then there's 'Bells, Body Weight and Barbells,' and that one's for the person who has a little more of a decked out home gym.
I'm sitting down here in the basement. We've got a squat rack with a couple hundred pounds of free weights and pairs of kettlebells that go from 10 pounds up to 80. So depending on which category they fall into, they could choose from either of those three workouts almost every day.
Dean: Okay. And same for us, but they can just choose whatever workout. Are the workouts done... Is it just to go camera on you demonstrating the exercise?
David: The workouts are laid out on the app, and for each exercise, there's a video of the exercise being performed.
Dean: Okay.
David: It's not actually a video - the workout.
Dean: Right, it's not you're doing the workout along with them for 30 minutes.
David: That's correct.
Dean: It's, "Here's your..."
David: That's correct.
Dean: Two sets of this, this, and, "Here's some video that shows you how to do this exercise" if you need that, or whatever, right?
David: That is correct.
Dean: Okay, okay. So you're just emailing them the protocol for the day or whatever, similar to the workout of the day or whatever. Got it.
David: Yes, yeah.
Dean: Okay. And are you ultimately... They have these kind of thing you can have on a loop really. How many of those do you have?
David: How many of those programs?
Dean: Yeah. How many do you have and consecutive days could you go with a new workout?
David: Well, I program each block is a month long or four weeks in length.
And right now we've been doing this for about five months. I've got five months' worth of that program done. So starting next month, if I didn't want to write a new one, I could always cycle back to the one we did five months ago.
Dean: Yeah, that's great. I like it. Well, that's pretty cool. So you've got the... Yeah, that's a pretty cool asset that you have now because these people, they're not going to remember six months from now that, "Hey, I did that workout on Tuesday, January 14th," or whatever.
David: Right.
Dean: You can remix and match them up, right, and keep somebody going on an infinite loop with that.
David: Right. I would say the biggest... I'd say probably my biggest source of frustration with that program, I really like the layout of the program, is it's directed toward just getting somebody... I'm going to use air quotes "hip." I's not necessarily directed towards getting somebody to lose body fat versus gaining muscle versus just getting somebody stronger. So I had to take a very generalized approach to it.
But the folks that are on it seem to enjoy it. I've gotten good feedback from that.
Dean: Yup. So it is what it is for that. But none of the 150 leads are on that.
David: No, sir.
Dean: Right. So that's not hitting the right zone for them, I guess, right?
David: Right. Which leads me back to how do I research their needs and figure out what it is they want.
Dean: Yes.
David: So that I can put that together. And it may be that if I offered a fat loss-oriented program through this platform, that might hit a little better.
Dean: I think you're right because you've got to have some... That's why the sorting in the beginning is kind of a great way to know which track to put somebody on, you know?
David: Yeah.
Dean: Which way to communicate to them. Because Fending off Father Time is really a pretty generic non-specific non-outcome-oriented kind of claim. It's not the same as 'lose fat,' or it's not the same as 'this many pounds of muscle,' or it's not the same as energy, getting rid of pain or being more limber, which are all potentially things that people might be specifically interested in, you know?
David: Right.
Dean: Yeah. It's really interesting for me, I've noticed... I remember working out in my 20s and there was a guy that was, now that I think about it, he was probably about my age, 55 or so, and he had come in, and every morning he would spend about 20 minutes in the mat just doing stretching. And it was like in your 20s, you're thinking, "Well I'm limber as a goose kind of thing," you don't feel like that's an important thing. But now as I realized, it's like, wow, the stretching is the thing that actually makes the big difference for me now even, that that's my biggest complaint is you get more brittle... or brittle's probably not the right word, but less agile.
David: The quality of movement can be more of a challenge as we get older.
Dean: Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so that spring in the step or that ready for anything movement stuff. I wonder if you look at it... I would really take some time to maybe even do a survey with these 150 people kind of thing, and just test your things about what the big commonalities would be or what the interest would be, you know?
David: I could go directly to that in this.
Dean: Yeah.
David: And asking them sorting questions.
Dean: Yes, exactly.
David: Okay.
Dean: Because if it turns out that... Losing weight is one thing, and you can treat that differently than somebody keeping their fitness discipline going into later adulthood.
David: Right.
Dean: Yeah, which is a different thing.
David: Dean, let me ask you is, when I start to see, because undoubtedly I'm going to get different responses. Let's say I sort those, and maybe 35 of them come back with, "I want to lose body fat," and another 50 of them come back with, "My-"
Dean: You've got to sort of adopt them then. You start to pick one of that group and you start to create a program that would be specifically geared to that.
David: That was actually going to be my question is, do I just pick one or do I pick one - product that serves them and then go to the next group or the next bucket of guys and say, "Okay, you guys wanted something different so I'm going to make something for you"?
Dean: Yes, absolutely.
David: Okay.
Dean: Yeah, because you ultimately...
David: I'm sorry, go ahead.
Dean: I was going to say you ultimately... They're only one of the... Somebody who has to lose weight is not the same as the person who is already fit and is starting to just feel the effects of not being able to do what they used to be able to do kind of thing.
David: And that sets me up later on down the line to be able to bundle some things together to say, "Hey, you want this complete system."
Dean: Right. That's exactly right.
David: Okay.
Dean: Because right now you're just trying... The challenge is that you're creating a general thing, and choosing one target market at a time is going to speak directly to the right people about the right thing at the right time.
David: Okay.
Dean: Yeah.
David: So as far as trying to send out surveys, because I've tried to reach out to these guys individually and really haven't gotten much of a response back.
Dean: Right.
David: Do I just need to get better at copywriting and the email process?
Dean: Yeah. I mean, that certainly helps a lot.
David: In order to get the feedback-
Dean: Yeah, of course.
David: How do I get them to come back to me?
Dean: Well, the easiest thing is to start with the new, the opt-ins that are coming in now. Start up, instead of sending it from Fork and Bell, welcome them. Welcome them and let them know what you've got. That's really the thing. You don't need to wait till tomorrow. Send an email right away. Maybe shoot a video. You start thinking about how can I engage in the first 24 or 48 hours like I'm greeting somebody coming into my physical environment.
David: Okay.
Dean: That's a different vibe than just sending them through the tunnel of these four emails and wondering what's going to happening when they come out the other end.
David: Okay.
Dean: Yeah. Start engaging with them, that's the thing. Treat them like real people, like they're the only one that came in today, you know?
David: Okay.
Dean: And that's going to really help you get a sense of who are the people who are downloading this report and what can I do to help them.