Ep068: Ken Ingraham

Welcome to another episode of the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast where today we're talking with Ken Ingraham.

I just spent three days with Ken in Orlando at the Breakthrough Blueprint event in Celebration where we talked about his Spanish immersion program that works for, well, all kinds of different people.

You're going to hear as we talk, how we narrowed down to a specific target audience and then hatch an ‘evil scheme’ to get in front of that group in just the right way. There's a lot in this episode as we go deep through the process of narrowing your focus to a single target market and really thinking about how you can dominate that market. When we do the math on this, it all becomes really exciting.

Then, we talked about the mechanism of how we're going to make this happen, how to really focus on this target audience so that we can get in front of as many of the right people as we can and by the end, we’ve hatched a fully thought out ‘evil scheme’.

You're going to enjoy this episode.


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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 068

Dean: Ken Ingraham.

Ken: Hey, Dean. How are you doing?

Dean: I am fantastic. I'm just turning on the last light here. I have my evil scheme hatching notebook. I have my evil scheme hatching pen. I have my Citrus Jade Green Tea, and I'm comfortably seated in my evil scheme hatching chair, ready to take on our day.

Ken: Okay. Well, I hope I challenge you. I have a whole list of questions.

Dean: How are you?

Ken: I'm doing good. Feels like just the other day I was in.

Dean: I know. This is great, because we've had ... You just left literally a couple of weeks ago. We spent three days together at the Breakthrough Blueprint in Celebration, so we got to spend a really great three days, and I'm anxious to hear how that's kind of landed now, and then maybe hatch an action plan kind of going forward here. We can amplify and clarify some stuff. I figure it would be good if you kind of set the stage for what you do, and where we're at so far kind of thing, and then we can jump off from there.

Ken: Yeah. Okay. As you know, I'm in the ... I guess what you would call the education travel industry. I've been in both. Specifically, Spanish immersion programs down here in South America. Argentina, Chile, and Peru. Then we've been doing this for like 15 years, and the business is divided into two sections. On one side, we have the college programs, which are your typical study abroad courses.

Dean: Yes.

Ken: Either summer program, or a semester they have fixed start dates. The regular interview, acceptance. Just a college program. And then the other side is more generic Spanish immersion, which is more of a travel program, so that people can come pretty much anytime, and to any of our schools, and study anywhere from one week to four months.

Dean: Okay. That's kind of ... Yup.

Ken: Yeah, so it's just about split evenly, so I'm trying to do it on both, and they both have really different funnels, so I get kind of stuck.

Dean: Well, there's part of the thing. I mean, let's just jump right from there. I know that when you've got multiple kind of situations, it gets confusing to think about selecting a single target market, right? What I always have to kind of do to ease people's minds is get you to realize that you're not choosing a single target market forever and only. It's where it gets interesting, is when you can go ahead and knock yourself out and think about all of the target audiences that you have available, right? There's so many, but you have to also realize that they're very different people.

When I say "select a single target market," what I'm saying about it in the context of creating a Breakthrough Blueprint, creating your ... Lining all the profit activators up has to begin with one of those, because it drives everything, right? That's Profit Activator one, is selecting a single target market.

Now, again, it's not to limit or to only get you to focus on that. It's "at a time." The only way Profit Activator two makes sense is when we know who we're speaking to in Profit Activator one. You can have multiple target audiences, but we're going to set the blueprint in motion for each of them, one at a time.

Ken: Okay. I mean, in the college market we're doing really well, for example, with the pre-med market.

Dean: Yeah.

Ken: That works really well, and then where I get really stuck is on the generic side, which is what we've always had.

For most of our existence, we were just serving people that came to us, and there's enough demand that it was a pretty decent business. The people that come to us, that just means the demographics are all over the place. You have young kids right out of high school, and then you also have retirees that come down. They come from all over the world. It's almost like more of a psychographic than a demographic.

Dean: I got it. Yup. They're harder to find, right? The more broad you get, the more difficult it is to find. When you look at it, of all of the target audiences, this pre-med that we talked about, because we spent a lot of time talking about that in Orlando, right? This as a potential goldmine here.

I guess what I'm thinking about is, what is the capacity constraint that we have? Or what's our goal here? How big are we trying to grow this?

Ken: Well, we could easily grow let's say three times without having to put in any stress work.

Dean: Any more infrastructure. You've got excess capacity right now, right?

Ken: Yeah, and then adding capacity isn't a problem. There's a relatively endless supply of teachers and housing.

Dean: Okay, perfect. That's all good to know, right? If we've got that level, one of the things that helps when we're narrowing down that target market is to start thinking about, what would it take to dominate that market? If you start thinking about, "Well, we've got all these possibilities. We could really appeal to so many different people." But we've talked about ... Let's try and just lay them out into different categories here so we can do a little evaluating on and comparing these markets. If we're just to say, "These are who they are." We've got premed, which is pretty easy to identify. What else? What would be another one of the target markets that you mentioned?

Ken: In the college side, we would have future psychologists or social workers. Service people that have a really practical use of Spanish, that would help them get a job. That, and also future lawyers. Maybe teachers. We haven't done a lot with teachers. That's mostly it for college. Right there, you have millions of prospects.

Dean: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, when I look at it, even just with the leverage point of the advisors that we've talked about in Orlando. Those were the premed advisors, right?

Ken: Yes.

Dean: Yeah.

Ken: Those are our whales, and they have-

Dean: Right. Exactly. Those are the gatekeepers to everything. Three different college markets. The premed, social workers, future lawyers. What, outside of that, were the other ones that you mentioned that we could maybe evaluate here?

Ken: Yeah. Okay. If I were to go more towards the general population?

Dean: Yeah.

Ken: I would say people that have already started learning Spanish, so they're using Rosetta Stone, or Duolingo. If we do Facebook ads to those, that always comes in really well, although I don't know how to convert them, but they raise their hand.

Dean: Yeah. I think when we're looking at it, that we've got to understand and realize that the thing that we're looking for are, how are we ultimately going to get to the end result here? Our beginning with the end in mind is that we have people coming to sign up for a multi-week program, right? How many weeks does it normally go for again?

Ken: I'd say four or five is the right in the middle. That's typical.

Dean: Four of five just about is right, so total conversion-

Ken: For the generic, not for college. College is longer.

Dean: Okay. How long for the college ones?

Ken: There's usually nine and up. Nine to 15.

Dean: Nine weeks. Okay. I'm just looking at this, that right away it seems like there's just so many benefits of the college market, and particularly the premed market, in that we've got a way to reach these people. What I have to look at is, what would be the problem with having reached your capacity with all premed people? Is there a problem with that, or would that be okay with you, if all of a sudden you were able to get in with somebody who really had influence with premed and was able to influence these premed students to come down and take up all of your capacity? Would that be okay with you?

Ken: Sort of. I mean, the transition would be tough, because now we're servicing people from everywhere. Maybe they would feel awkward if they were in a school that's 95% premed students. I think it's sort of always been appealing that we have a nice mixture of people.

Dean: Right. You look at it that what we're looking for are opening up different kind of channels that we can thread all the beads here, you know? That we can select that target market, we can get them to raise their hands, we can educate them, motivate them, and then make an offer to get them to take that first step, to come on down. I think we've talked about the having start dates as the thing for your college students. I remember we even laughed about the way that most people kind of make those decisions, you know?

Ken: Yeah. Well we do have the start dates for the college students, but not for the generic.

Dean: If we want to go through the ... Do you want to kind of expand on how we could go all the way with the premed program? Or do you want to explore a couple of the other possible markets to scheme how you could attract those people?

Ken: I mean, I could either do premed or the standard. I do have problems with the standard, but if you think we should almost kind of just let that one ... Put that on autopilot.

Dean: This is my thing, is that I think that what you want to do is pick the target market that we can have a baseline for, and set up this foundation that we know that we've got a fully predictable system for this, right? It seems like with the premed, you would have access to a visible audience through the advisors that we talked about, and the ability to kind of get that established, because right now we don't have that in place, in terms of a fully predictable engine, right?

Ken: Right.

Dean: I would say to focus on that. It's almost like if we're going to create this ... We're going to have multiple target audiences, the best course of action is to pick one of them and get that one established, and then move on to the others as well, you know? It's almost like, let's kind of get that ... Because it's almost like getting two or three things going halfway. We're talking about units of time that it takes to get these things rolling here, and I think if we just, for a short period of time, put on the blinders, realizing that there's always going to be social workers, and lawyers, and people who are just interested in learning Spanish from the general population. They're always going to be there, and we'll get to them, but what if we just kind of focused on the premed for right now, and fully went into setting up this before unit to bring us those people predictably?

Ken: Yeah. I'm down with that, and I'm sure my salespeople will be happy too. They're asking me for more applicants.

Dean: Okay. Perfect. I think that's the good thing. Now, when we start going through this process here, the next thing is to get a sense of how big this audience is. How many people are there? And let's kind of set our sights on this. Let's put some numbers to it. If we're thinking about this, when do people typically come, or is there a typical ... If they're premed, are they coming in one of the summers between their going into med school, or after they graduate, or in their junior year? When is it kind of on their radar that they might do this?

Ken: They usually want to come in the summer so they don't have to get any special approvals or anything. That's at least 80% of the cases, and then it can be anywhere from freshman until after they graduate, and then they want to do what's called a gap year before med school.

Dean: Okay. Perfect. If that's the thing, then you've got ... If we're attracting any of them, like if you show up on someone's radar as a freshman premed, that they now at least know that it's there, and set their sights for, now we've got three more summers, right? Three more chances at potentially winning them over, right?

Ken: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: One of the great assets that we uncovered in Orlando was this list of advisors. That seems like that would be the best course of action there, you know? That seems like they would be the ones that would have access to and conversations with shaping their students' career, right? Or their path through premed into med school, and-

Ken: Yeah, and ... Sorry. Go ahead.

Dean: No. In that role of being an advisor, it may be they talk on a macro level about the idea that, "Oh, I'd really like to study Spanish, and I'd like to travel to do it, to South America." That would be a conversation that they would have. Does it look good on their med school application to have that sort of diversified experience, or what's the primary motive that somebody would have for doing it?

Ken: Yeah. I guess there's two. One is that it definitely helps the med school applications, both the Spanish, in the United States that is really important, and also they get medical shadowing experience, so they're following doctors around down here. Both of those are good for them. Then they also get the altruistic benefit, where they know they'll be able to help their future Spanish-speaking patients in their own language.

Dean: Yes.

Ken: Rather than having to give them potentially unsafe and less caring ...

Dean: Perfect. I think that part of the ... When you start talking about this now, when we start looking at it, that it's almost like any sort of travel destination. Almost like a luxury travel destination in a way, right? You're looking at these advisors almost as an analog to travel advisors, right? If their students are having this discussion about, "I'd like to do something in a foreign country. I'd like to do some Spanish." That they are equipped to share the information with them, right? Almost like a catalog of the experience, and the dates, like it's a summer programs kind of thing for 2018. Do you have something like that yet put together, that would kind of ... A wish book, or experience book, or how when you ... I think we were talking at the event in Orlando about Norwegian cruises, and I ordered up that Norwegian cruise catalog. It's amazing what they have, you know?

What's really interesting to me, this I just got in the mail. I got that about maybe a week ago, because I think I ordered it while we were in Celebration. I got it when I got home, and then just yesterday I received a Norwegian Cruise Lines credit card offer, which was really fascinating, because they sent out this beautiful catalog with all of their itineraries, all of the different cruises that you can take. The river cruises, the ocean cruises, the whole thing, to show you what it's like. Then a week later, or two weeks later, I get separately a credit card offer, which is kind of an interesting thing that they must have partnered with Visa or MasterCard, or I don't know who. I forget who it came from. But to kind of plant that seed, that, "Wow. Here's how you can pay for it too." Kind of thing, you know?

Ken: Right.

Dean: I thought that was kind of fascinating. Now, I thought about you, actually, because I knew I was going to be talking to you today, that that might be an interesting partnering for you too, you know?

Ken: With a credit card company?

Dean: Yeah. This is the thing. Most people don't know ... I mean, a lot of groups have ... You can have your own credit card, and they get some fees that are ... They're support kind of cards, right? You get this credit card, and you're supporting this charity or this group, or this organization, or whatever. But it could be the same thing. Just as an aside, I found that very interesting, because these credit card companies are also, they're interested in finding people who want to do travel. People who are looking at and ordering information about luxury travel are probably people who have money. It definitely makes sense that that would be a good audience for a credit card company too, right? Everybody wins. Somebody can, rather than save up for this cruise, go ahead and put it on this credit card, get all these extra bonus points, and pay for it later, right? People are definitely far less attached to future money than present money, you know? It fits in all those ways.

That being said, the first thing that, when you look at it, is this guide. Do you have a catalog or a program guide, or something that would kind of, in a print format, give somebody a magazine style type of thing that would show what it's actually like? What the experience is like?

Ken: No. Right now we just have the online sales page, and then a book of interviews with past students.

Dean: Yeah. Exactly. I think that that may be ... Certainly that sort of information, that sort of ... There's a lot to be said for placing them in the environment. People are wondering, "What's this like?" Kind of thing. Really great, professional photography would paint this picture, right? Showing in classrooms, showing the community, showing the map that shows where your schools are, and shares the options. Almost like if you were treating it like a luxury travel destination, you know?

Ken: Yeah. I mean, that sounds sort of overwhelming to do.

Dean: Let's think about it, because it's not really that overwhelming, right? When you break it down ... This has been one of the things, and I'll acknowledge that, yes, it seems a little overwhelming to do. But once it's done, it's done. I go back to when I was selling real estate in Toronto. One of the first things that I did when I got bitten by the marketing bug here, where I fell in love with marketing, is I put together a guide to Halton Hills real estate prices. I took pictures of 60 different house styles in the Halton Hills, put a map together, did all of these things to give people who were moving to Halton Hills from the city a sense of, "What's it like to be here?" Like, "What do you get for your money?" That's what people wanted to know.

When I talk about a little bit of effort, that really took some doing, because in order to make a print booklet, I had to take actual photos. I had to get them developed with a half-tone film that would be suitable to photocopy or to print. Then we had to lay it out on the actual pages themselves, know desktop publishing. It was so difficult to put it together, but I made hundreds of thousands of dollars from that.

There's the thing, is that in order to do this, it's so easy right now to put something together. You just imagine. Let me just walk you through what a 12-page booklet might look like, right? You've got on the cover, a hero shot, maybe an aerial shot of the best-looking city or town or whatever where one of your schools is. The dream shot that somebody might imagine themselves in with going somewhere to study school. Then the title of your thing, and the "2018 Program Guide." Then open it up, and on the inside cover you'll have more basic information about what this is. Then maybe a letter from you. "Welcome to ..." You know. "This is what we do." Then you open it up, and in the table of contents, there's your location one, and location two, and location three, and four. You've got six schools, you said? Six locations?

Ken: Right.

Dean: A two-page spread for each of the locations, with the basic information together there. The same kind of things. What would be the shots that somebody would want to see? Information about the city, information about ... Just a snapshot of the things. Some picture, testimonial, or experience of somebody who did that school. Maybe a picture from a classroom. Maybe a picture of the housing, or what would be the questions that people would have for doing this? That is all it needs to be. Then an insert with the class start times, and the pricing list, you know? You could put it together very quickly, but it would be super, super duper valuable.

Ken: Yeah. I totally agree with how valuable it would be.

Dean: Right.

Ken: I would need to get some help putting it together.

Dean: Of course you would.

Ken: Like Get Leverage.

Dean: Yes. Of course. Somebody exactly like Get Leverage. That's exactly right. GetLeverage.com, that you would say, "Listen, I want to put together ..." Just exactly the way we described it. As a matter of fact, it's so funny, because we're working with Get Leverage right now on ... I have a mortgage client, and we're working on putting together a series of these guides for all of the top cities in Florida, to start. There's 100 markets in Florida that are over 25,000, so it's almost like an individual retirement guide for each of those locations, and that will then be the precursor to doing a video show that will highlight each of these places in Florida. It's a lot of work, but when your goal is to dominate, it makes it worth it, you know?

If you look at how this is going to work here, let's just get a little bit excited here. Let's light up our greed glands, as Gary Halbert would say. What if we were to say you've got two-thirds more capacity here than what you have. You could triple what you're doing right now, but let's just say that we were to ... How many people is that capacity for?

Ken: For meds, we'd be going from let's say 150 to 450 over the summer.

Dean: Yeah. When you look at that, if we look at each one of those, what's the price point that they would spend to be part of one of these summer programs? Nine weeks, or 15 weeks?

Ken: They pay $10,000.

Dean: How much? Sorry?

Ken: About $10,000.

Dean: About $10,000. Okay. If we look at it that here we are, that every 100 of these, 100 more of them is an extra million dollars, right?

Ken: Gross. Right.

Dean: Yeah. That's what I mean. When you look at that, and it could be up to $15,000 or more if they do the longer program?

Ken: Yes. Mm-hmm.

Dean: Okay. When you look at that, it's like we've got ... If you went from 150 to 450, that's an extra 300 people, so if you do this fully and it were to work, it could be a $3 million venture just for next season, right?

Ken: Right. Yeah. You've made the case that it's a good investment. Sure.

Dean: Yeah. Exactly. You think about that, it's like you just need ... We're in a situation right now where it's never been a better time to have ideas, you know? Because execution is becoming a commodity. Execution is available instantly, on demand, at scale, in just the right amount that you need. You don't have to go hire a design team as employees, and train everybody, and all those things. Every element of this can be on demand. You could hire a photographer to come and do that. You could probably even find ... Just with a little creativity, there's probably one of your students or somebody, a photographer who would love to come and take your program in exchange for being the documentarian of it, you know?

Ken: Sure.

Dean: You start thinking about what you have as assets. You've got this excess capacity as an asset, because right now it's sitting idle. It doesn't cost you anything, or minimal amounts incrementally, to have somebody new come through. But you think about that as the great thing, it's phenomenal. Anyway, there's-

Ken: Execution is like what we talked about in Orlando. I have to find the who, to find the what, and then let the who worry about the how.

Dean: That's exactly right. That's what I'm saying, is you just need to focus on the what. You can visualize this guide, right? Even just in what we talked about.

Ken: Right.

Dean: Yeah. I mean, just laying it out, what needs to be in it, and make that look great, what would be the basic layout of it is that, with the nice cover, with the title, with the 2018, a letter from you, a table of contents, two pages for each of your six things, a centerfold map of South America with where your schools are, surrounded by some pictures with quotes under them. I mean, that's really all it needs to be. That's the minimum viable thing. That way, that piece right there then is an opportunity for every one of those advisors, because that's our leverage piece there, right? Is we know who those advisors are, to have on hand when one of their students starts talking about, "I want to do an immersion program." "Well, let me show you this."

Ken: Perfect.

Dean: Right.

Ken: Yes. The who, what does the who look like? Is this the project manager?

Dean: Yeah. The who for this would be-

Ken: Marketing assets?

Dean: Yup. Would be GetLeverage.com, and just have this conversation with them, you know? It's so amazing. We had a conversation with them about the TV idea, and they immediately go into action starting to get the research and the planning, and get everything together. They just put wheels in motion, you know? They have access to all the best things. I bet that there's probably even ... You probably might not even need to hire a photographer for the city shots. If you just even went to Flickr, or one of the photo sharing sites, and did a search for the city, that there's probably a lot of those really great tourist images that people have taken, or locals, that would be either available through a Creative Commons license, or would give you permission to use that image in your booklet, you know?

Ken: Oh, yeah. There definitely are. The who, then, is Get Leverage. It's not the person that Get Leverage finds.

Dean: Right. That's exactly it. That's how you have to think about it, is that they're the one person that you just need to articulate. This is the skill for the future, is getting crystal clear on what you want, and your ability to articulate it and describe it to somebody who can make it happen.

Ken: Okay. No, that helps.

Dean: Yeah. Staying in that "what," you know? Staying in that, "Here's what I want." Let them worry about finding the person who's going to be the right person to make that happen. You just need to be crystal clear on what you want, and be able to articulate it.

Ken: Okay. That's perfect. I thought they were just going to be a matchmaking service.

Dean: No, no, no, no, no, no. They do it all. That's the beauty of it, right? That's the whole thing. It's on demand. It's your ideas executed. I mean, that's really the greatest thing. And you're only paying per second while people are actually doing stuff specifically for your project.

Ken: Okay. Yeah. I have a call with them on Monday, so that's exactly what we'll talk about.

Dean: Okay, perfect.

Ken: I guess the other thing which I really loved that we talked about in Orlando was the making our version of the postcard, the World's Most Interesting Postcard.

Dean: Yes. Yes. I love that idea too, and I showed you what Taki Moore ... Did I show you what Taki had done? Yeah. I showed you the version of the postcard that he had done, and I think for you, it's just that same kind of thing, that that would go to the advisors, because all of these refer ... This is what it's based on, is that all referrals happen as a result of conversation. Those advisors are going to be sporadically all throughout the year in conversation with their students, and at some point, one of their students is going to say, "I'd like to do a Spanish immersion program." Right? That's the moment that we want to own in the mind of those advisors, so they say, "Oh, I have just the thing for you." And they're able to reach in their file catalog and show, "Here's this program." And let you know that they have done that, you know? That you've got a whole kit that they can get, you know?

Ken: Yeah. I know. We talked about this. I introduced this yesterday at our team meeting, and everyone's excited about that.

Dean: Oh, I am too, because just the math on it. I mean, you look at it, but those 2,000, or even if we tested and said, "Let's take 1,000 of them, compared to the others. Compare it and see how many referrals you get from the 1,000 that we focus on versus the 1,000 that we don't." Even without doing the experiment, it would be inconceivable to think that you would get more from the group that you don't do anything with than the group that you did, right?

Ken: Yeah.

Dean: Yeah. Sometimes experiments, you don't even need to actually do the experiment. You just know what the outcome is going to be. That it's going to be slim. Those conversations are happening, and just like we talked about the activating ingredient of that World's Most Interesting Postcard is that it makes sure that at least the first two things in the three things that have to happen for a referral to take place are going to occur. That's that they have to notice that the conversation is about Spanish immersion programs, they have to think about you, and then they have to introduce you to the person that they had the conversation with. That's how a referral takes place, right?

Now, those conversations are happening, and they may not even notice that that's an opportunity for them to introduce them to anybody, because they may not even know what the options are, right? As an advisor, they may be sitting there saying, "Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I had a student a couple of years ago that did something like that." But they don't have any really practical, valuable advice or input about it. What we want is to equip them to be valuable advisors. That's why they're going to do it. If they know about stuff, if they've got something that could be valuable information for their student that's considering doing a Spanish immersion program, that they would now want to share that, because it's going to make them look good. "Oh, take a look at this." That's how it's all going to happen immediately, right?

If we do this once, to send them the catalog, if we send them the directory, or we send them a postcard to ask for the directory, the package, the guide, that's what I would recommend probably, is do a postcard initially offering the 2018 Spanish Immersion Program Guide. Send that as the initial postcard to the advisors, and then every month send the equivalent of the World's Most Interesting Postcard with a really great picture from ... Almost like you would get, like a real postcard from somewhere from South America, right? Featuring one of your six locations and something great about it, and then on the back of it, a note that is bringing up information about the program. "Just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about doing a Spanish immersion program." Then maybe answer a question, or answer something that would add to their arsenal of soundbites that they can draw from to add value to a conversation with their student about Spanish immersion programs. Then offer them the opportunity to, "If you hear someone talk about it, give me a call, or text me, or email me and I'll get you our full guide for our 2018 programs."

Ken: Awesome. You don't even think this postcard needs to be a full contentimonial with an article? Just a cool picture and then the super signature?

Dean: I think that it can be the cool picture, and then on the backside, a note. Like an actual note that says just like we talked about it.

Ken: Right. The note is the super signature.

Dean: The note is the offer, yeah. "Just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about Spanish immersion programs." You're embedding this sort of memory, you know? I mentioned in Orlando how that sort of repetition, trigger that anchoring stuff, is so powerful. I had it happen to me with the Empire Flooring. They've been gone for a while, but for as long as I can remember, 20 years at least, there's been ads on TV for Empire Flooring. They offer same-day flooring, and they've got this crazy jingle. I've never paid any attention to it, never had any interest or desire for it, but one day in our real estate group, one of our clients posted up in the message board, "Does anybody know where I can get same-day flooring installed? Same-day carpet?" Without me even thinking about it, and against my will, my mind immediately started singing the jingle for that commercial. It was just immediately there, because of the repetition of that being implanted in my brain.

Ken: Love it. No, that's very cool.

Dean: That's what's going to happen here, is that when you're sending postcards from South America, and it's snapshots of what's going on, almost like your little travel log in a way, and answering maybe some of the most frequently asked questions that people have, or giving your advisors some soundbites, or facts, or something about the program that's going to be useful, and then whenever somebody is asking about it, "Oh, I just got this. Let's order this guide for you." Now you've got a visible prospect.

Ken: Awesome.

Dean: All that work to put that guide together was worth it.

Ken: Yeah. Now that I know that Get Leverage hopefully can take a lot of the...

Dean: I know they can do all of it. I know they can do all of it. That's the thing. I sense that all the time with people, that it's hard to look past the logistics of something, but you can't argue the logic of this.

Ken: It's like we were talking about in Orlando, it's more trying to do the to-do list, or to make it, than to actually do it.

Dean: Yeah. Right. That's the thing. It's more fun to make checklists than to follow checklists. Yeah. That's exactly it. That's where the leverage is, you know? But if you could snap your fingers and automatically have that happen, you know it would be a valuable thing. It's just the logistics of making it happen.

Ken: Yeah. That has been the speed bump for years.

Dean: They've got designers. Yeah, they've got designers. They've got everything, you know? You just need to be able to figure out the context of it, right? You're going to have to get involved in the content of it, because you've got your specific information about the programs, and the dates, and what's going to be specifically relevant, what needs to go in the guide, but they can execute all of it.

Ken: Okay. I definitely will do this.

Dean: Okay. You know what I want to do, then? Is let's do this. That's the stage we're at. I want to do a serialized version of our episode here. I want to take this and let's get that implemented, and then let's come back and do a part two, and we'll talk about the implementation of it.

Ken: Awesome. That's even a better incentive to get it done.

Dean: Yeah.

Ken: Like I said, Monday morning I have the call with them.

Dean: Perfect. I would just get in as much detail as you can imagine, what that actually would look like, you know? I don't want you using anything more technical than a pen and a piece of paper.

Ken: Okay. Perfect.

Dean: Yeah. That's it.

Ken: We have tons of photos, also, of students in action.

Dean: Perfect.

Ken: Shadowing, and then supplement that with, like you said, the Flickr photos.

Dean: Yeah. I can already see it. I mean, it's already ... In my mind, it's already a beautiful thing.

Ken: Yeah, I know.

Dean: And just make it easy. Part of the thing is, just make it easy. Use big pictures. Use Helvetica. Don't get caught up in making all kinds of font choices and all this. Just use the Helvetica family. You can express anything you need to express with Helvetica, from the bold, to bold all caps, to Helvetica Narrow, you know? Everything there. Just make it simple.

Ken: Yes. No. This is exciting. Yes. I can definitely make this work.

Dean: I'm excited, because I already see it done.

Ken: Like we said, the math is a no-brainer. It's just the procrastination.

Dean: Yup, and that's all of the logistics, and I think that you're going to find that those guys will be able to take all that off your plate.

Ken: Okay. Well, I don't want to put too many things on my plate, so I'm just going to-

Dean: No. I don't either.

Ken: -zero in on that one.

Dean: We done hatched an evil scheme.

Ken: Yes, we have.

Dean: All right. That will be the next step, and I'll wait patiently to hear it all unfold.

Ken: Yeah, and if I get stuck, I'll just post them a blueprint.

Dean: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm in the Facebook group all the time.

Ken: Okay. Awesome. Thanks so much, Dean.

Dean: Yeah. It's all very exciting. Thanks for coming on.

Ken: Okay. Have a good one.

Dean: Yup. Thanks, Ken. Bye.

And there we have it. Another great episode. I love it when a good evil scheme comes into play. Overcoming the logistics, overcoming those logistical goggles to see the logic of how something can be an incredible idea. If you can imagine it, you can make it happen. We're living in amazing times. Like I've said to Ken, I'm excited to have a followup episode here to see what happens when he actually takes this and implements it. We'll look forward to following up with Ken and documenting this whole journey.

If you're not already subscribed to the podcast, go to iTunes.com, click on the subscribe. While you're there, you can leave a review, leave a comment, give us a rating. We'd love to have you do that. If you'd like to continue the conversation, get a transcript of this episode, you can go to MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com, and while you're there, if you'd like to be a guest on the show, you can click on the "Be a Guest" link. Tell me a little bit about your business, and maybe we can hatch some evil schemes together.

That's it for this week. I look forward to continuing this episode.