Ep085: Ben Byrne

Today we're talking with Ben Byrne from Halifax, Nova Scotia. A fellow Canadian.

He's got some really great ideas. He's an enthusiastic copywriter who's looking to break into the market of helping financial advisors with their marketing.

We talked a lot about 'scale-ready algorithms', syndication, and the baby-steps in the process of helping and finding those people who want to, need to or are looking for help with their finances.

We talked a lot about some of the different strategies he could apply to crack that code which is where the real opportunity comes from. Being able to solve the problem once, and duplicate those results, breaks you away from reinventing the wheel each time.

There is a lot here and you're going to enjoy this episode.


Show Links:
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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 085

Dean: Mr. Byrne, I presume?

Ben: Dr. Dean Jackson? Is that you?

Dean: That's me. How are you sir?

Ben: I'm great. I am great.

Dean: Well, I'm very excited. I have my evil scheme hatching notebook. I have my pen.

Ben: Awesome.

Dean: I have a brand new bottle of Evian water, and my headset and I'm prepared fully to hatch evil schemes for the next 60 minutes with you.

Ben: Awesome. Perfect. I can't wait. Oh, okay-

Dean: So tell me, what's going on?

Ben: Yeah, yeah, sure.

Dean: You're in Canada, right?

Ben: Yeah, I'm a filthy Canadian. I'm from the east coast. You're from Toronto, right?

Dean: Yes. I was actually, though, born in Stephenville, Newfoundland.

Ben: Really? That's funny because I was just there in August. Beautiful, yeah.

Dean: Well my dad was in the US Air Force and stationed at Stephenville, Newfoundland. So I lived there for two weeks.

Ben: Oh.

Dean: But you can't take that away. I'm an official Newfie.

Ben: Well, have you been Screeched-In though? Because that's the real test.

Dean: Have I been what?

Ben: Screeched-In. That's where you got to kiss the cod and you drink the shot of Screech, which is like rum punch. Great time.

Dean: No I have not been Screeched-In. I guess I'm not official.

Ben: Fair enough. I actually went ... I caught my first cod there. Anyway, enough about me. Yeah, I'll tell you a bit about what we're doing.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: A bit's changed since ... My god, I applied to this almost six months ago, it feels like.

Dean: Hot ticket then-

Ben: I'm a copywriter.

Dean: It's a hot ticket.

Ben: Yeah. I mean ... pretty excited here. It's funny, I've been listening to the I Love Marketing and this podcast forever. But, anyway, yeah, right now we're actually ... I've been listening to your podcast, and it's like, here I am ... I couldn't pick a niche, right?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: It was like, the very first profit activator. So I finally just decided on just doing financial advisors, basically, with my buddy. So we're basically doing ... I'm in your buddy Frank Kern's inner circle, there.

Dean: Oh nice, okay. Good.

Ben: Yeah, yeah. I saw one guy in Australia was helping financial advisors with webinars, and I was like, wait, I know how to do that.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, I figured like nobody's really doing that here, so that's what we're working on right now.

Dean: Perfect, well, tell me all about it. So what's the-

Ben: Sure, yeah.

Dean: How are you doing so far, and what's the-

Ben: Yeah, it's a bit-

Dean: What's working?

Ben: Sure, yeah, absolutely. It's a bit slow going right now because we ... My partner and I, he kind of does Facebook ads a lot, and I just kind of do the emails, and ... Anyway, we have our first client. It's like a wealth management guy in Toronto, which is pretty cool. We're just in the process of setting that up now, just kind of like the first one, you know? The proof of concept?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And yeah, it's just going slow or us, but I mean, there's a communications gap. He's in Ukraine and a bunch of stuff. But yeah, I would love to cook up some evil schemes here to really get this thing moving, you know?

Dean: Yeah, okay. So your friend in the Ukraine is working with you on the technical side of doing all the webinars and all that stuff or he's on the advisor side?

Ben: Yeah. He ... Well, it's actually his uncle. I know this guy from Toronto because I lived in Toronto for a bit.

Dean: Okay, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And he just ... I'm actually planning on moving from Halifax to the Ukraine to work there, but yeah.

Dean: Wow.

Ben: So what he does ... Yeah, hopefully. Yeah. So what he does is basically he's like a wizard at Facebook ads, my buddy Ryan. And I was hoping he'd be on this call, but he ... anyway. He basically does ... He knows the financial advisors industry really well and I don't as much. But I know copywriting and sales and all that stuff and webinars, plus all the stuff from good old Frank.

Dean: Yes. Okay, so what have you figured out so far? What are you testing? Or where are you at with that?

Ben: Yeah, we've been testing ... I mean there are so many different options. I really just kind of want to get ... I don't know, almost like the minimum viable product, you know?

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Just end results, just to prove that this thing really works.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And then I feel like once that happens we can just go to other financial advisors and even if they're doing stuff the old way, like referrals, or whatever ... It's like, hey, look what we did for this guy, and they'll be like, oh wow, I didn't even know this was a thing.

Dean: Right.

Ben: This is the goal, yeah.

Dean: So have you figured out your approach, or have you been testing things so far, or are you just in the planning stages of it right now?

Ben: No, we've been ... as far as, you mean like reaching out to some?

Dean: Well, reaching out to them or actually getting some campaigns going. Like getting anything-

Ben: Yeah ... Okay, for the actual client that we already have?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Yeah, we're just ... It's funny. We just got the content from him for his seminar. I figure our target market is kind of financial advisors who are doing seminars, and then it can just convert that to a webinar, right?

Dean: Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: It was a bit of a road block getting his content because he has a big team and it was ... We haven't even started building the webinar yet, so we're still pretty new at this. This specific offer.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So what are the topics of the ... So he's got a winning model right now with the seminars, so I imagine that it's very similar to what they do in the states here-

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Of sending invitations, having people come to a dinner seminar, doing a presentation, inviting them to come for a consultation in the office, and then turning them into clients. So that whole model.

Ben: Right, right.

Dean: That's kind of the default model that everybody uses in the financial world. So what have been the winning appeals that they've used for the seminars? What kind of topics?

Ben: Sure, yeah. Yeah, so there's ... they have two main audiences. It's kind of hard for this guy because his ideal client has like one million dollars in assets, and he's in Toronto. I mean we can find that list, but basically there are two avatars, if you want to call them that. So like a business ... a boomer business guy who's kind of thinking about retiring, but basically wants to save on taxes. Or make more money.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And then there's a guy that ... I should probably have my other notes open, but yeah, that's the main one we're focusing on. Basically kind of entrepreneurial type ... Let me just actually open my notes one sec.

Dean: Okay, no problem.

Ben: Yeah. So-

Dean: And so have they done already ... I guess what I'm curious about is does he have a successful system right now that he has got some way of connecting all the dots from picking a list, doing a mailing or doing Facebook ads, getting people to a workshop, presenting the information, getting them into the office and turning them into a client. Has he got a system that does that successfully-?

Ben: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dean: Right now? Okay.

Ben: Yup. Yup.

Dean: So a lot of them-

Ben: Basically-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: They do a few things, right? But they do hire students for like cold calling. So they don't do as many seminars, I guess, as they could?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: So that's why they're kind of open to this. They're like, well, it's worked for them in the past so-

Dean: Yup.

Ben: Yeah, they're ... Yeah, so business owners and those nearing retirement. So, retirees. Those are the two avatars.

Dean: Okay, and so-

Ben: They do have a few angles there, yeah.

Dean: Yeah. Tell me about those. What's the-

Ben: Sure ... Let me just ... I got this weird thing playing on my computer. So the first angle is basically business succession planning. So if it's a family business, what are they going to do? Are they going to sell the business or ... That's one. Individual pension plan strategy is another thing that they do for ... seriously, like a tax sheltered savings vehicle.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: I'm kind of speaking, like, Klingon here, because I'm not really like a finance guy, which is ironic.

Dean: Right, right, right, right, right.

Ben: But yeah. Another thing is like, another idea they have is ... They call it a duel will strategy, which is basically they can set up a will or their business, which is another way to save in taxes. So those are three things that have been pretty successful and people respond a lot to those.

Dean: Yeah, well, that's interesting. I've never heard those words, "duel will." So what is it about that?

Ben: No, me either.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What about that?

Ben: As in what is ... is it actually ... what is it?

Dean: Yeah, what do you know about that? Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Yeah, so it's basically I guess ... I could just read you word for word what it says, but under the right circumstances it makes sense for a business owner to create a second will for their business or their private corporation in order to minimize probate taxes.

Dean: Okay.

Ben: So, yeah. And basically you can make an investment under $2000, and save over a hundred thousand in taxes. At least up to that. You know, you got to worry about disclaimers.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Yeah, that's one idea.

Dean: Okay. And do they have a way of generating leads for that right now? You mention that they have students do cold calling. What are they doing and who are they calling?

Ben: Yeah, they just buy lists of, basically, affluent people in the greater Toronto area. That's one way. So I was thinking ... I'm thinking of a few different options for us with either direct mail, which is tried and true. But they think, oh, it's too expensive, so they want to try Facebook ads first.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Which, fair enough. My friend's pretty good at that, so ... but I think it's either one or the other.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). What do they have the cold callers say? How are they doing this? So they get the list and they have people calling them up and saying what?

Ben: Yeah, they're just trying to get them in for an appointment, basically. Like hey ... It's probably-

Dean: Hey, so you got some money there-

Ben: Yeah, it's like-

Dean: This is Jason down at the financial advisor office.

Ben: Right.

Dean: I see you here on my list that you got some money. You want to come into the office and talk about it? I mean what do they say?

Ben: Ah, I see you have some money there.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we have a monocle cleaning kit. Basically, "Hey, have you talked to your advice ..." I don't even have the script in front of me, which is embarrassing. It's ... and pretty low success rate, you know?

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: There's a lot of opportunity here.

Dean: Right, right. The reason I'm asking those things is to see where ... I'm looking for the clues of what you can build on, what they're already doing. Like if they have a way of getting people to a seminar, or a workshop or whatever they're doing-

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Do they do direct mail for that or do they-

Ben: Yeah, they definitely do.

Dean: Or how do they get people to that? Okay. And what's the offer ... Do you have any of the postcards or any of the invitations or mailing that they send for those?

Ben: Yeah, I do. Let me just bring up ... You would think I would be all prepared for this. Thanks a lot, Frank. So, how's ... Are you in Florida right now?

Dean: Yeah, I am. Yeah, yeah.

Ben: It's been cold. I think my stepmother just went down there. "It's only 19 degrees!"

Dean: Oh my goodness.

Ben: It's like what? That's like summer. Yeah.

Dean: So, are you looking at the postcard or the invitation, or do you have it?

Ben: Yeah. They're pretty ... I'm pretty sure they're pretty generic. I'll just-

Dean: What the topic is or what they're saying to get people in the room, and I've got a couple of strategies that would be-

Ben: Okay, here's one.

Dean: Helpful to test.

Ben: Like your first name ... Okay, so this one's about investment properties. So it says, "Whether you are looking to purchase an investment property or you're a business owner who requires capital to pursue growth opportunities, high net worth individuals often have specific capital needs that extend beyond traditional financing." So this one's about creative financing, I guess.

Dean: Okay.

Ben: "As such, creativity and flexibility play an important role when it comes to financing. We would like to invite you to a seminar on," the date, "hosted alongside" so and so, "to discuss innovative financing strategies to build wealth for investors." And then, these guys, "Specialize in alternative financing solutions and pride themselves on out of the box " And so then it says, "The topics of discussion include enhancing your investment portfolio with the annual potential of turning 8% into 12%; purchasing an investment property with zero money down, and taking cash out of a business in a tax efficient manner." Then it basically says "If you're interested but you can't come just let us know and we'd be happy to arrange a consultation meeting to answer any questions you might have."

Dean: Right.

Ben: So it's basic stuff, but yeah.

Dean: Yeah, so when you look at this ... So what I do know, and we've had this experience over and over and over, that if you have something that is working as a workshop, you know, where you're getting people to come, that you can double or triple or more the response to it by offering a book as opposed to a workshop.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Now, because what's happening there is you get the ... You know, the people who will come to workshop are a subset of the people who would love the information, but they're not available, or able to come to a workshop on Tuesday night.

Ben: Right.

Dean: And so they don't respond. And like you said, if you're not able to make it, call for a consultation, that sounds like too big of a leap right now, right? So-

Ben: Yeah, it's like, come to a sales call. Yeah.

Dean: Yeah, yeah. Call now, we've got trained sales people are standing by.

Ben: Yeah, we are your friends. Give us your money.

Dean: Right.

Ben: It makes sense. Yeah.

Dean: Right.

Ben: Reverse bullseye.

Dean: Because that's the thing, right? So I've had this happen again and again. So maybe you heard I did an episode with Malcolm, with a guy who works with a doctor that does stem cell-

Ben: Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I remember that one, yeah.

Dean: Treatments. And he was doing workshops. They were running full page ads in the magazine.

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Or in the newspapers.

Ben: Right.

Dean: And we talked about doing a book instead. And Malcolm sent me an update, and he said, "Hey Dean. Since our conversation, we've seen our leads and conversions grow substantially. Where we were attracting 20 to 30 people a month to our seminars, we're now attracting 80 to 100 and having to add additional overflow events to accommodate everyone that would like to attend. This was accomplished by adopting your recommendation of using a book as our lead magnet a rather than the one step process of inviting everyone interested. The book helped establish our credibility and authority plus enabled us to build a list of over 1,000 people interested in our program in a very short time."

So this ... you've got information, right? That a certain group of people would want.

Ben: Right.

Dean: So by offering it as a book, that's kind of the ... you're building this list that's an asset now that you'll be able to invite them to future workshops, you know, every time you have one.

Ben: Right. And I guess my idea was ... I've been in enough of Frank Kerns, his monthly calls, or weekly calls, or biweekly, I guess. Where basically every question to him is just like, oh yeah, just do a webinar, dude.

Dean: Yeah, and you could do a webinar. And that's the thing-

Ben: It's just like, wait, how could you just do a webinar?

Dean: It's instead of-

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Yeah, instead of somebody coming to a live thing.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: But even if, you know, if you watch what ... even if you watch Frank's doing is he's leading with a book.

Ben: Right.

Dean: And that has made a ... That makes a big difference because you kind of separate the compelling from the convincing this way, right?

Ben: You got to, yeah, that makes sense.

Dean: You've got each step along the way. Right now you've got this broad group of people who you suspect may be interested and when you make it as easy as possible for people to respond, now you get a list of people who are prospects, right? Now you get the biggest, the widest list that you can because it's all amplifiers. There are no filters involved. It's just, here's all the information and you can get it right now with this ... just ask for this book, right? And that's easy to consume. It's easier to consume, even, than a webinar. And I say that-

Ben: Right, webinar, you got to sit there, and-

Dean: Right.

Ben: It's time intensive, right?

Dean: Yes. If somebody's not able to sit there or still not available on that Tuesday, or not able to sit there and watch it right now, they're less likely to opt in for it because they're connecting the opt in with the consumption.

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: Whereas a book goes right into ... it matches what our natural desires to gather information, right? We're gatherers.

Ben: That's true.

Dean: We're genetically coded, right, for that. That if you-

Ben: Hunter-gather, yeah, no. It's so true though, yeah.

Dean: Even if we're out walking on the field and we stumble across, you know, bananas, that we're going to grab the bananas and take them back to the cave, right? Even though we're not hungry right now.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: We know that we're going to want them later. And that's where-

Ben: It's so funny you say that, yeah.

Dean: But that's the way-

Ben: Yeah, okay.

Dean: Why all this stuff works like that, you know? And so, I would-

Ben: Sorry to just cut you off. I just had this tiny idea. Like what about just taking the webinar script and turning that into a book itself? Like transcribing it? Do you think that would work?

Dean: Yeah, sure. It doesn't really matter.

Ben: They care about the results, right?

Dean: Right. The title of the book ... The things that matter about a book ... and this is, you know, I mean I've got a whole company that ... We have a whole team of people that's all we do all day is make 90-Minute Books, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: That's the whole thing. And the reason that it works, the reason that it's so appealing is that you get 100% of the good stuff of writing the book with a 90-minute book in that you've got the things that matter. The things that matter are that you have a book, that you have a title, that when your ideal audience reads it they say, "I want that book," and you've got a way for them to get it. A landing page, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: That's the three things that really matter about a book. That's what drives the response. What they don't know or don't care about when they're requesting the book is they don't know how many pages it is.

Ben: Right.

Dean: So it doesn't matter whether it's 50 page or 250 pages. They don't care how long it took you to write it. And they don't care how cleverly you crafted the second sentence in paragraph three of chapter two, right?

Ben: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Dean: How you slaved over how to word that, you know? Nobody cares about that.

Ben: Nobody cares, yeah, yeah.

Dean: The truth is that nobody ... half the people that buy any book don't even open it.

Ben: It's so true. Yeah, I know.

Dean: All we want to do ... Yeah. All we want to do, all we want to use the book for, is to get people to ask for it. And as soon as they ask for it, I don't care whether they read it. That's not about it. As soon as they ask for it, the book has done its job. I just want to engage, now, in a conversation with somebody who's asked for a book about creative financing, or about equity or buying properties with zero down, or whatever the topic is, right?

Ben: Yeah, getting them to basically raise their hand that they're interested, and it's kind of like ... the path of least resistance, right?

Dean: Well that's it. And it starts up ... then it starts a conversational conversion path, you know?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: So if we look at the way that it flows with the profit activators is you've selected a single target market. High net worth or high investible assets, or high income, or whatever they are. You've chosen a mechanism of using a postcard, direct mail, or using Facebook ads, or whatever it is to offer a book that has the title that your ideal audience is going to respond to.

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: And let's just pause right there because that right there is the big win.

Ben: Right. Yeah.

Dean: As soon as you get that invisible prospect to become visible prospect, you're more than halfway there, you know?

Ben: Yeah, exactly. That's funny that you say that because I listen to so many More Cheese, Less Whiskers podcasts. That's why I picked financial advisors for us because they're a visible prospect kind of.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Yeah, same idea. Yeah, I'm totally with you. It makes so much sense. It's funny that we forget the most simple things but they're the most powerful, right?

Dean: Right. That's exactly right. But where you've got it now, what I would be looking for, is to figure out something that you can syndicate, you know? Like I would look at for you, what would be the thing that you could crack the code for one advisor that helps them in their local area and then use that to start relationships with other advisors all over Canada?

Ben: That's just it. Yeah, right.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: I've been thinking about that too. That's where we're going with this. So the idea was, you know, get this working for one guy and then hopefully we can bring it to other people ... syndicate, that's a good word.

Dean: Yeah, that's exactly right.

Ben: But I realize how broad financial advisors are. It could be insurance guys. It could be ... my god, it's such a huge spectrum there, right? So it's like kind of picking a sweet spot. Either that or get rid of half the market. You got to narrow it down like a bullseye.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Who can we best help, I guess.

Dean: Right.

Ben: And then how many of those people are there?

Dean: Right. That's exactly right. You know, are there ... is it ... If you can figure out a way that it's not just about the highest net worth people-

Ben: Right, yeah.

Dean: There are a lot of advisors that help-

Ben: Everyone, right?

Dean: Yes, that help everyone. That would be a valuable thing.

Ben: Yeah, I called a bunch of financial advisors just doing my research, just seeing if this is actually viable market.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And I found one of the things about financial advisors that they told me, their words, not mine, like everyone has money. Everyone is a potential customer in some way or another. It could be taxes. It could be estate planning. Investments, you know? You name it.

Dean: Yup.

Ben: So there's a huge ... That's why we picked them, because the opportunity is so enormous.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: I think most people think it's too hard to get them results, but I was one of those people until I was in Frank Kern's group and I saw some dude in Australia. He's like yeah ... I'm not going to try to mimic his Australian accent. Mine's terrible. But he's like, "Yeah, I made this financial advisor up to like 100 grand a month using this system." It was like a light bulb moment for me because here I was trying to be everything to everyone, right? Just like everybody else.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: It's like oh my gosh.

Dean: And I think that's part of it. That's part of-

Ben: Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: What really has to help is that you really ... No matter what even if either you're going to be the copywriter, that's what you're coming at this as, right? A strategist. Marketing-

Ben: Yeah. Both, yeah.

Dean: Service-provider kind of thing. That you really have to dive into this, you know?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: You really have to get to know what the ... look for what the opportunities are. What's compelling? What are the things that people are most concerned about, you know?

Ben: Yeah, and again it's just because it's such a broad market, it's like, if I ... For example, my friend's uncle here. He services affluent people and they have different needs than, you know, as you know, like regular people. Let's call them, I don't know, civilians.

Dean: Yeah, right.

Ben: They have different needs and desires and problems, but it doesn't mean you can't service them, it's just a different market. For us it's like, well, I was thinking, who could we not only get the best results for, but who would also ... We care about money too. We want to get paid. So the financial advisors, even just the local ones who their goal is to get maybe 10 million dollars assets under management, and that is actually a very ... It's insignificant. It's like so small. But if you're doing cold calling, that's like Mount Everest.

Dean: Right, yeah.

Ben: But there are other people that I was like-

Dean: Especially if they're getting it a couple a hundred thousand at a time.

Ben: Right. Exactly. But for us it's like man, we could do that in like ... with a bit of target marketing, we could do that in like weeks, you know? We'd blow their mind. We couldn't even make those claims because they'd be like well this doesn't sound real. Oh sorry go.

Dean: Right. But I think for you part of this thing ... any time you're going to syndicate something or you're going to do that is you've got to get to work on the prototype. You know?

Ben: Yes. Yes.

Dean: You've got to do your N of one study where you're going to work to crack the code. And then-

Ben: It's funny, because yeah-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Go on.

Dean: Each step along the way you document what's happening.

Ben: Right.

Dean: And you're able to duplicate it, you know?

Ben: Yeah, it's so funny that you describe it like that because I was thinking like a scientist. It's almost scientific the way you do it.

Dean: It is, absolutely.

Ben: It's like a method.

Dean: Yeah, it is. That's exactly what we think is the scientific method.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: We propose hypothesis.

Ben: Right.

Dean: And then you set up the experiment and you go to work and you observe what happens, record all the results and then you duplicate it again. If you can get it to predictably work again, then you got yourself a winner that you can scale.

Ben: That's so funny you say that because I think of everything in the scientific method in business. No one else does.  It makes it so much easier and less stressful, but at the same time, you got to do the work. So that's where we're at now. It's like a feedback loop, though. Even the eight profit activators.

Dean: Right.

Ben: You know, they got started with that version to get them the results, and then the return path, right? For lack of a better word.

Dean: Right. That is exactly it.

Ben: You guys are smart. You guys are pretty smart over there. I'm jealous.

Dean: When you look at the advisors, part of the thing that ... One of the easy magic tricks that you can do for an advisor is to help them orchestrate referrals. Their business is primarily based on referrals, generally. But they're not doing anything to orchestrate it. They're coming at it that they're asking or, at the very best, they're asking for referrals. A lot of them aren't, but they're getting them.

Ben: That's genius. You're a genius.

Dean: One of the things that everybody ... You know, if you start to think about that, that they've got ... That's an asset that they have. Everybody wants to go out and just run this magic ad campaign that's going to get them new clients, but the truth is that, especially in a business like financial advising, there's a strong element of trust that has to be built, you know? And that's why referrals, we often need to depend on others, the people who we know and trust, to advise us on who's advising them. So it's built in, right that there's high stakes with this.

Ben: Yeah. Right.

Dean: And you've got that opportunity, so if you want a conversation with an advisor around ... excuse me ... measuring their return on relationship ... and that's something, those are words that they never have used before, or heard of. That I you start a conversation with them and say, "Well, how many clients do you have right now? And how many people do you know? If you get to at least 150 people, which is the most-

Ben: Dunbar's number.

Dean: Yeah, Dunbar's number, right?

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: That's the thing. That there are 150 people that know them, that if they saw them at the grocery store they'd stop and recognize them by name and have a conversation. Those people could be referring them.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: But they're not orchestrating that, you know? And the only reason is because they may be, in sort of a faulty way, thinking that they don't want to beg their clients for business. And they don't want to appear weak, or they don't want to appear like they can't get business on their own.

Ben: Yeah, like they're desperate.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, I hear you 100%. But it's just the wrong way of looking at it, right?

Dean: Right.

Ben: It’s about referrals, it's a conversation. So it's, "Hey do you know anybody who knows anything about, I don't know, taxes?" It's like, "Oh yeah, talk to Jim Jimbo." You know?

Dean: And here's the thing. That's exactly right. You look at it that rather than asking for referrals, like they're asking them to do you a favor, once you realize that the only reason people refer is because it makes them feel good, then you get the chance to just engineer situations where they get to feel good, and-

Ben: Oh I just had a cool idea for-

Dean: Tell me.

Ben: The goodwill referral machine. You know? Or something like that.

Dean: Okay.

Ben: Engineering ... I don't know. There's something-

Dean: Yeah, I mean-

Ben: There's an idea there.

Dean: Yeah, right. So when you look at it then, if you get people over that mindset, right? That they're asking for or they're begging or they're showing weakness ... when you really understand why they refer, because it makes them feel good ... They want to feel like an insider. They want to feel like they're a trusted advisor to their friends. And it raises their status in the herd that way.

Ben: I hear you.

Dean: That then now it's about engineering situations that that happens more often, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: When you have that conversation with them and you realize that all referrals happen as a result of conversation.

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: And that in order for that referral to take place three things have to happen. Number one, they have to notice that the conversation is about money or taxes or financing or mutual funds or business succession or whatever it is.

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: And they have to think about your advisor and then they have to introduce them to the person that they had the conversation with. All three of those things have to take place.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And so often, for every referral that they do get, as a passive referral ... somebody saying, "Hey I was talking with Ben and he said you do a great job with him and I'd love it if I could talk to you about helping me." That's most of the referral that people get.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: If you start to think about it now, about how to orchestrate them ... you know for every one of those, there are probably at least five opportunities that don't connect all three, right? They're probably in conversations about money and don't even notice it a lot of the time.

Ben: Of course.

Dean: Or they notice it, but they don't think about you. Or they think about you-

Ben: You know the funny thing about money-

Dean: But don't say anything, you know?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Or they probably tell you, "Oh yeah, I tell everybody about you."

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Right? But you're not getting referrals.

Ben: Okay, where are the clients, right?

Dean: Right.

Ben: That's where the book comes in, or the landing page or whatever, right?

Dean: Yes. So now when you ... That's exactly right. When you orchestrate a situation that you present that, you kind of future pace it, right?

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: So you're saying to people ... We use something, we use a tool we call the world's most interesting postcard, which is like a monthly newsletter postcard that just has all kinds of interesting facts on one side, and then on the back it has a post-it note graphic and in there we put a note that basically brings a high probability conversation to the light every month. So we might say, "Hi Ben. Just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about buying an investment property this year."

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: "You know a lot of times with the new tax laws or whatever it is, it's a great way to maximize the ROI. If you hear someone talking about it, give me a call or text me and I'll get you a copy of my book for creative financing ways," or whatever the title would be.

Ben: Sure, yeah.

Dean: Now when they hear that conversation, they've got a way now to feel like a hero.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Because that's going to remind them that, oh, Ben just said he had a book. And that I could get that. So he's now going to call you to get that book to give to his friend, which is going to make him look like the hero. Which is exactly what we want.

Ben: Right.

Dean: Even though when they call you to ask for the book, you get to start the conversation and say, well, tell me about your friend. And then how can we connect?

Ben: That's so smart.

Dean: But you're focusing on the highest probability outcome, which is not depending on your client to convince their friend to call you, but the higher probability is that your friend, or client would be more comfortable calling you.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And that's a higher ... So that's what we focus on, you know?  But that kind of thing, like when you're starting a relationship with new advisors, you know, new to you, that that's often a great way to start the relationship because you can get some immediate, really low cost-

Ben: Get your foot in the door, right?

Dean: ROI.

Ben: Perfect-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And that paves the way into new stuff, you know?

Ben: Right. Aw, man. I'm so happy I called you, Dean.

Dean: Oh good.

Ben: That's such a great idea. And yeah, that's like a referral campaign. What about like sticklers. I'm not sure. They probably have ... their herd gets poached, right? That's a big problem with financial advisors too.

Dean: Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: They have various grades that they ... like oh, this an A client, so they call them like 12 times a year, you know?

Dean: Yeah, interesting, right?

Ben: Or this is only a B client, so I'm only going to call him six times and then, oh wait ... It's like why do all my clients leave?

Dean: Right.

Ben: That would be an interesting way to not only keep your clients, but also engineer referrals, I think.

Dean: Yes. That's exactly right. But there's the thing, it's like when you even just dividing up their business into before unit, during unit and after unit is an eye opener in a lot of ways for them. Because they realize how after unit heavy their business is. Meaning that the majority of their revenue comes from recurring management fees with the clients that they already have assets under management. You know?

Ben: It's funny because ... I'll be honest. My biggest blind spot for the eight profit activators is always the after unit as well.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: I don't really see it as ... It's like a flat earth. It just falls off never to be seen again, unless-

Dean: Right, yeah.

Ben: I think that's most people too. That's so funny. And at the same time, for our own offer, in the during unit, I think the better we get that, it's almost going to create our own momentum for us.

Dean: Yup.

Ben: Financial advisors will start talking ... These guys are ... either they love us or hate us. Hopefully they love us. I think starting with the return ... I keep calling it the return path. But the after unit is a great, great leverage, foot in the door kind of thing, you know?

Dean: That's exactly right. And it's the highest probability. I mean, if you take 150 people and let's say that you send a postcard for a dollar a month per person.

Ben: Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: For 150 people you're talking about $1,800 for the course of the year.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And each client is worth so much more than that.

Ben: Oh yeah.

Dean: It's almost ridiculous. Such a high ... and all the initial work that it takes ... and they already have their address. It's just-

Ben: Following up.

Dean: Just starting it, you know?

Ben: Yeah, yeah. I know a lot of them suck at following up too. That's also a huge leverage point. Not even just lead generation, but following up, orchestrating the referrals, as you call it. I love the word.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And yeah, that's such a great idea.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And for part of people ... you know, when they look at it that, you know, if they're maximizing their after unit as advisors, there's so many opportunities even to just do more with the clients that they already have.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: You know, like helping them get into other alternative things. Like turning into property investors.

Ben: Right, right.

Dean: Doing some of those other things that they're able to help with, you know?

Ben: Yeah, right. It goes back to the three ways to grow a business, doesn't it?

Dean: Yes, that's it.

Ben: Increase their average transaction. Get them to spend more money or invest more money.

Dean: Yup. That's exactly right.

Ben: Man, there's so much opportunity here. I was just focused on the before unit. I guess that's my copywriting training, but yeah, that's awesome.

Dean: Now how do you get to the ... How do you find these advisors, you know? That's really the-

Ben: We've been doing it the old fashioned way. We're using a mix of cold emailing, basically direct outreach if you want to call it that.

Dean: Okay.

Ben: I called up a few people, a lot of people actually. And then doing social media kind of outreach stuff. We don't want to start putting money into the advertising system until we get the offer going. You know? Like we get that proof of concept or that prototype.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: And then once we get that, are we just going to feed it into the machine. I figured we were going to get like maybe five clients before we really know what the hell we're doing and then we can say, okay, we have something here that is like proven now. And we can just start paying, and I can use all my advertising experience ... well, it's not really experience, but my weird advertising brain to start cranking this thing out. So, yeah.

Dean: What kind of opportunity do you see for that?

Ben: So for our personal ... Like for us getting more clients.

Dean: Yeah, I mean that might be a great way to model, you know? I mean, that's what I do. I work with a lot of real estate agents.

Ben: Okay.

Dean: So I use that same model, right? So I constantly am running ads for a book, a 90-Minute Book called Listing Agent Lifestyle.

Ben: Right, yeah. Right.

Dean: Yeah, it's for real estate agents. And that ... I'm constantly running those. I get book opt-ins for about a $1.54 right now, if I just look at the things. I can get hundreds or a thousand opt-ins a week like that and look at just engaging those people in the dialogue.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: But the thing is that once they ask for the book, I know that they're in the right place because they are attracted by that message, right?

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: So it's so much about the book titles that make a difference, you know?

Ben: Yeah-

Dean: Building what you know-

Ben: Yeah, mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Yeah, doing what you know about the financial advisor with the workshop that they're doing, that's where I would kind of start is if you can come up with a book title that would be the right thing. And it's really interesting because we're running ads or our 90-Minute Book business, right? And one of the things I alternate ... we have our ... I just run ads offering a copy of the 90-Minute Book, which is itself a 90 minute book.

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: And people download that. Or now we're testing ... we have a report on the five most compelling types of book titles. And that-

Ben: I read that one.

Dean: Oh you did, okay.

Ben: I can't exactly remember-

Dean: You must have just seen the ad recently about it, because that-

Ben: Oh sorry, I actually heard it from one of your podcasts. You mentioned it I think-

Dean: Oh that's it.

Ben: And then I went to go see it, but your system works.

Dean: Right. But there you go, when you look at it ... I look at it, there are five types of book titles. And I don't mind sharing those with people because I know that if they can get the title right ... If they get a title that they're excited about, that they're going to be so much more excited about now writing the book.

Ben: Right.

Dean: Because it's real for them, right?

Ben: Yeah, and then they get to the hard part, which is actually writing it, and they're like ah fuck. What's Dean do? He does 90-MinuteBook.com.

Dean: Yeah, I've got 90 minutes. Let's knock this out before dinner kind of thing, you know?

Ben: Yeah, that's hilarious. By the way, I promote your 90-Minute Book site. Anyone who asks about writing books, by the way. You don't have to pay me, by the way, but if you wanted to that'd be fine.

Dean: No, that's fine.

Ben: Yeah, so are you talking about a book for us. For example, like how to-

Dean: Well, both. I think book for anybody

Ben: Yeah, both. Definitely both, yeah.

Dean: ... like both. But when you're saying about for the financial advisors, right? Like what type of title would be the kind that would get those people to raise their hand? Is it a, you know, I call them "Name it and claim it," titles where it's like just holding the book is going to give you what the title says. Like-

Ben: Financial Peace.

Dean: Financial Peace, yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: The Four Hour Work Week, those kinds of things.

Ben: Right, yeah.

Dean: Or the-

Ben: How To.

Dean: Declaration books, like Stop Your Divorce. Or Double Your Income, or Think and Grow Rich, which are action books. That's what I'm going to do. Somebody grabs that book, they think that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to think and grow rich. I'm going to stop my divorce. I'm going to, you know, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, like soft cold ... or soft refer ... or something.

Dean: I'm going to double my income, yeah.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And then the third ones are how to because you can't finish the phrase "how to" without having some kind of benefit oriented thing, right? How to ... there's an outcome attached to that, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And you know, sometimes that's the longest thing. So look at Frank Kern, right? How to Get High Paying Clients, Even if Nobody Knows Who You Are.

Ben: Yeah, I-

Dean: That's a how to compelling title, right?

Ben: You got me on that one like two or three years ago. You're totally right about that ... I didn't read the copy. I was just like, "Hell yeah, I want that book. Frank Kern."

Dean: Right.

Ben: How to get ... Yeah, of course. It makes so much sense.

Dean: And then before you know it, you asked for it, and you may not have even read it, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: That's really the reality.

Ben: I'm one of the weird ones who actually reads it like 10 times.

Dean: Yeah, me too. I love it.

Ben: Yeah, go figure.

Dean: And some people are, and that's even the best. But I guarantee you that probably I would say three out of our people who do 90-minute books with us have never read The 90-Minute book.

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: And that's ... They see it and they say, "Oh yeah, I want that." And they just start the conversation and get going on their own book.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: But its job because it just got you in the conversation, you know?

Ben: Yeah, from the marketing perspective-

Dean: And the other thing-

Ben: We just want people to raise their hands, right? We don't care about the how to so much as what, you know-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Are they raising their hands? Yes. Okay next step. Yeah, I get you.

Dean: So the other type of book thing is like an information gold mine. Where you're saving somebody research. You know? Like when you look at things like ... we did a book on US Hockey scholarships.

Ben: Right.

Dean: So US Hockey Scholarship Directory. Or the hundred great places to have an outdoor wedding. Or anything that is research oriented, you know? We have a social security benefits guide.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: We have a USDA-

Ben: The real estate, right?

Dean: Zero down home loans guide. Yeah-

Ben: Or the home buyers.

Dean: Yeah, it's anything information ... Yes, all of those. Yeah, the guide to Winterhaven lakefront house prices.

Ben: Right.

Dean: All these things are like information gold mines for people who are in fact finding mode. Right?

Ben: Or buyers, right?

Dean: And that's ... Yeah, that makes a big difference. And then the fifth one is questions. Like listening in on what ... the questions, the conversation that's going on in people's minds. So there are really powerful books like What to Expect When You're Expecting. Or things that are ... We did a great report on how to know when it makes sense to refinance.

Ben: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: All of those things are what are the questions that people have that if you can adopt those things, it makes a big difference.

Ben: Yeah. It's hard to pick just one. Like the information gold mine for example. Say if you're doing investment property taxes ... The 10 Things You Need to Know About Buying an Investment Property. And then, basically at the end of it just say yeah, you should call a financial advisor, and guess what? That's what we specialize in. That's like-

Dean: Right.

Ben: One angle, like that.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Or the questions, you know?

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: They're all good. They're all good.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And that's the thing-

Ben: I'm trying to think of-

Dean: When you find that ... yeah. When you find ... Like I think, a "how to" ... any of those ones combined with a how to as a subtitle, even, is a great amplifier. That's really what it takes because once you get that ... Once you hear the title that you're talking about you know that you've got something, you know? And it becomes-

Ben: Oh, can I interrupt for a second?

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: I want to tell you my book title. I actually forgot I wrote this book, which is so embarrassing. But I actually really was thinking about your book titles and mine's about selling. I called it Introverted Selling Secrets.

Dean: Ah, nice. Yeah.

Ben: Like how to become a successful salesman even if you're scared shitless.

Dean: Right, exactly. That's great.

Ben: I was like, "I want that." Yeah, I didn't have to even sell it. It sold itself.

Dean: That's exactly right. People recognize it. Yup.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: It's so funny you say it because I had a guy in London come to one of my Breakthrough Blueprint events. So he did the Influential Introvert.

Ben: Oh really. I love that.

Dean: Uh huh, yup. That's the thing. So it's really ... You're on the right track there.

Ben: Yeah, like The Wealth Financial Advisor or something like that, you know? Like how to-

Dean: Oh The Wealthy Barber, right?

Ben: Right, right.

Dean: That's an example of it. It's one of the best financial books ever in Canada.

Ben: Yeah, like I'm just thinking or our personal business, it's a good one to model. You know, The Wealthy Financial Advisor: How To Grow Your Book of Business by ... I don't know. I don't want to put claims in there, so maybe-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: How To Grow Your Book of Business Without Lame Stuff. Like cold calling, referrals.

Dean: You're right. I mean, it's that whole thing.

Ben: Like How To Get Yay Without Boo as Frank Kern says.

Dean: Right exactly. That's it.

Ben: Yeah, it's a good idea.

Dean: All right, well what's your takeaway here? What's your thoughts about everything we ... to kind of recap what we talked about here.

Ben: Yeah, well, my god there's a lot of stuff. I've just been scribbling down notes, but for one ... The biggest immediate return on investment and on time I guess is the referral-

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Some kind of referral campaign. We can do ... You think to do postcards? Like postcards is probably better than emails? Or both.

Dean: Well I think it all helps.

Ben: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: But I look at the postcards like ... Go to theworldsmostinterestingpostcard.com and you'll see what I'm talking about. That's the postcard that we use. That's the kind of thing where you can do that, set that up with an advisor, and they're going to get an incredible ROI on that.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And that's going to pave the way for your relationship.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Because everybody else who's approaching them is really starting with-

Ben: Buy my shit. Yeah, I know-

Dean: Exactly, right?

Ben: The whiskers, not the cheese, right?

Dean: Yes, that's exactly right.

Ben: And that's kind of where we were at too, as far as our own offer goes for pricing. As far as like what is our offer? We haven't ... Do we do commission? Do we do flat fee? You know? There are too many variables to be honest. It's overwhelming.

Dean: Well you got to understand what the result you can create is.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And that's how you value it, right?

Ben: Right.

Dean: That's why when you start with one person and you overinvest your time and effort in them. And then every time that you crack a code, it's less time to redo it again, you know? So now it's like you get to a point where you can instruct somebody else how to execute this program so it doesn't really take any of your time. You've just created the-

Ben: Scale Ready Algorithm.

Dean: Scale Ready Algorithm, yeah.

Ben: Jinx.

Dean: That's what you create, right?

Ben: That's awesome. Yeah, okay, perfect. So we're kind of at the ... we're doing it on commission now for this one. So we're at the result part. Yeah. Awesome.

Dean: That's it.

Ben: Yeah, we have so much to go on here. So yeah, takeaways. After the referral thing ... that's a great, quicker return on investment for them. So they can probably bring that in to their lead gen.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: And then we can come up with evil book titles. What was your acronym for evil, by the way?

Dean: It was ... Oh-

Ben: I always laugh when I hear it.

Dean: Yeah, yeah.

Ben: Evolve, something.

Dean: Yeah, right. Yeah it was-

Ben: It's okay.

Dean: Can't remember off the top of my head.

Ben: Yeah, like Evolve, something ... I was like oh yeah. It's like evil. Anyway, so yeah, focus on the return path. They already care about referrals, so why not ... instead of fighting against that, why not go with that mindset. But then basically say, hey, we can also do all this other stuff. We can work on their conversion and get them maybe cross sell or something there with their current clients. Like upsell them, you know, whatever.

And then we can create the lead generation machine itself. We can use a book or ... First of all I got to figure out what information they actually want. But I guess we already have that, right? We just got to turn that into a capture page, right?

Dean: Yup. That's it.

Ben: And yeah, just get them on the phone. So the sales process itself goes like, ad or mail. They come to a conversion event and then they request a call or to talk to an advisor.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Ben: Typically, they want them to come into their office. I was thinking with the seminar it could be basically Facebook ads or direct mail to landing page. Then they watch the video, or they don't watch it and we follow up with them.

Dean: You know they get the book. Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, exactly.

Dean: I would always ... The front end of any of it would be the book. And then on the thank you page, the moment that they're finished with asking for the book, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: Like I mean, you look at how simple these pages are. If you go to 90-MinuteBook.com or you go to emailmastery.com, you'll see how completely stripped down those pages are. It's only to start with the book. And then everything happens on the other side of that, right? As soon as you opt-in for the 90-Minute book, then it's immediately, "Here's how we can help you write and publish your first book in 90 minutes, right?

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: We're automatically now-

Ben: It's basic ... It's marketing, yeah.

Dean: Taking them by the hand and leading them to the next step.

Ben: Yeah. It's funny. I've only recently started realizing how important, like ... Sales and marketing is basically being a leader. It's like, "Hey, here's the next step" and drop the breadcrumbs for them. Like come here now.

Dean: That's exactly right.

Ben: It's almost like they're little kids.

Dean: That's exactly right.

Ben: For lack of a better word. That's so funny.

Dean: People are silently begging to be led. You're right.

Ben: Yeah, that old Jay Abraham quote.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: I never really completely understood that until recently. Awesome. Yeah, this has been ... I have all the notes here, but I'm probably going to listen back to this.

Dean: Cool. Well you know it'll be great for you to listen. When you listen back you'll hear it differently because you're not caught off guard or you're not thinking about something.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: That's what people always say. You hear it again and you can recapture your notes, or you hear something with some clarity.

Ben: I got so many random notes, I'll have to decode them later. Like the highest probability is the after unit. I don't know why I never-

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: It's so stupid because we know people buy ... They typically-

Dean: They already know you, like you and trust you.

Ben: Know, like and trust.

Dean: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, the works already done.

Dean: Yup.

Ben: Wow, this is ... Yeah, I got a lot to kind of work on here.

Dean: Awesome.

Ben: And I want to get to work now.

Dean: I've enjoyed it.

Ben: Yeah, this is great, Dean. Yeah, this is awesome.

Dean: Yeah, it's great. It's nice to talk to a nice Canadian.

Ben: Yean, another Canadian. Yeah. Have you been the east coast? Halifax?

Dean: I have, yeah.

Ben: Oh, nice.

Dean: So I was back in Newfoundland three or four years ago. My mom passed in 2013, so-

Ben: Sorry to hear that.

Dean: In the summer of 2014 I went back to Newfoundland. She's from there. That's where she grew up, so her family has a burial plot and stuff there.

Ben: This is a totally weird question, but is her last name like Osmond.

Dean: No, uh uh. No, no.

Ben: Okay, never mind. I know a lot of ... Everyone in Canada knows each other. Never mind.

Dean: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? She was a Harvey.

Ben: What was her last name, out of curiosity? Harvey?

Dean: She was a Harvey was her last name. Yeah, yeah.

Ben: Oh, okay. Fair enough.

Dean: So yeah.

Ben: Yeah. I don't want to take up any more of your time here. I could talk all day, but-

Dean: Makes sense.

Ben: Yeah, this has been amazing.

Dean: Awesome, well, keep me posted. Let me know what you come up with.

Ben: Yeah.

Dean: And good look with all that.

Ben: For sure. You'll see my probably like 800 90-Minute books in the future.

Dean: I love it. Perfect.

Ben: All right. Thanks a lot.

Dean: Well I got a whole team standing by to help you.

Ben: Okay, perfect.

Dean: Okay, talk to you later.

Ben: All right, thanks.

Dean: Thanks, Ben. Bye.

And there we have it. Another great episode, I think Ben's got a lot of stuff to work on. He's got a lot of great ideas that we kind of hatched out of that, and I can't wait to see what kind of book title and things that he comes up with for his lead generation programs. Now, if you'd like to continue the conversation here, you can go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com. You can download a copy of the More Cheese, Less Whiskers book. And if you'd like to be a guest on the show, you can click on the Be A Guest link. As I mentioned to Ben, we have a whole team of people standing by to help you write and publish your book in 90 minutes of your time. You can get a copy of the book that started it all at 90minutebook.com.

Hopefully we'll be able to get you started and start using the greatest marketing tool that you'll ever have, which is a lead generating book. So that's it for this week. Tune in next time and I will talk to you again.