Ep110: Jay Wong

Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast we're talking with Jay Wong and Jay is a really interesting guy. I met him in Toronto at a Nick Kusmich event I was speaking at and we got talking about his model of helping people set up, and building brands around their podcasts.

We had a really good conversation today about the purpose of a podcast and the place it has in your 8 Profit Activators, and if you've been listening to the way we do this podcast, it will be an interesting look into the psychology of how I use a podcast in our marketing.

It's nice to have that conversation with somebody who you know is going to take action on the things we talked about, including generating an audience for the show before you actually start the podcast, rather than doing the podcast first and hoping you can build an audience from there. 


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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 110

Dean: Jay Wong.

Jay: Hello. Dean Jackson.

Dean: How are you?

Jay: I'm doing well, I'm doing well. I'm glad I called this number.

Dean: This is the number, the evil scheme hatching hotline.

Jay: Yeah, yeah yeah. I'm glad I got through. I hope I'm caller number one.

Dean: Well, we are already recording, we got the whole hour to hatch evil schemes, and I'm excited to talk to you. I know we met in Toronto at Nick Kusmich's, so I think it would be a good place to start. Let's hear the Jay Wong story, and then see where we can take the conversation. What you got going on, what you're working on.

Jay: Sure, sure sure. Yeah. If I had to be honest, I was listening to your podcast, because I knew that this was happening, and I was trying to think of what are the main questions, what are the things. And I'm like I'm so glad we're doing the call because I kind of know but I kind of don't know, at the same time, what to even ask.

Dean: Mmm. Gotcha.

Jay: Context wise, context wise, about two and a half years, almost three years ago, I started this podcast, and the podcast is called the Inner Change Maker. When I had launched it, back then ... I know you've been podcasting for significantly longer. But even three years ago, the podcasting scene was very different. My podcast, the way I launched, because I was driving all of these people to subscribe, to give me all these ratings and reviews, and we had this huge plan in place, we were really, we were able to do the whole new and noteworthy thing when that was still kind of a thing. And it really quickly became ranked on the what's hot section in iTunes in the self-help category.

That really got me my first probably couple hundred, maybe 1,000 first impressions and downloads. Because I was able to do that, I did that with literally no email list whatsoever, and this would be the story that I would share. I would get a chance to share the way that I did this at different podcasting conferences. I got invited to speak at all these different type of meetups. Some were maybe 10, 20 people in the room, some were 300, 400 people in the room. It was pretty amazing doing this the first year, because I didn't have any products. I didn't have an online course, I didn't have a book, I was trying to figure all the stuff out as I was interviewing, and mostly the format, especially in the beginning, was just interviewing people that I really wanted to give thanks to, because their work really inspired me to move in this direction. And I thought it would always be great to collaborate with these individuals.

Dean: Right. Yeah.

Jay: The theme of the show was this idea of choosing legacy over currency. I didn't know how to necessarily address that, and I know ... Sometimes the benefit of having a podcast is because you don't have to create the content. The pressure's not 100% on you, and for me, especially starting out two and a half years ago, this was amazing. Because of the theme. It's such a big esoteric question, you can approach it how you want to, it attracted some amazing people. And I know a lot of the people you would know, people like a Sean Stevenson or Bob Procter, Lisa Nichols. I ridded off the coat tails of these individuals. That's how I met Nick. And leveraging the podcast to really build my own network, and over the course of doing this over the last couple years, the more times I spoke at different stages, people eventually kept asking me, hey, can I hire you to either teach me this, or do you have a team that ... I like everything that you're saying, but can you guys go and implement it.

It all started with essentially running a beta group. I said hey, I've never ... Fully transparent, never taught anybody doing this, but I'll show you exactly everything that I did, email templates, sequencing-

Dean: Which is a great model.  I like that. Yeah, that's a great model. It doesn't matter. A lot of people think we gotta have everything figured out. But you were building an audience, and sometimes the best thing to do is to listen to that audience and see what they want. What they need. What would be ... I always say we start out with coming from what would be a dream come true for your ideal client? What would be their dream come true? And if you listen, they'll tell you. Then you start to say, hey, would you like to do this? And of course they would, because it's the dream come true.

Jay: Yeah, yeah. It's really been great, because I would have never thought, in the beginning when I had just launched my podcast, if I had to be honest, I wanted ... There was parts of me that wanted to obviously get my own, figure out what my message was and be able to share that with an audience and be validated to some degree, but to also make an impact for these listeners and for these individuals. And then on the second part, I knew interviewing these people that had these massive audiences. And not everyone that came on had such a large audience. But I knew layering it that way with the podcast, it would be great to build my own movement or my own community.

It's been awesome to, now, we've had over ... Just under 80 people that have gone through the course. A whole number of people have been able to launch their own podcasts, and the way that I frame it is you're really putting a voice behind your business. You're putting a voice behind your products, your services, and if you really wanna take it to the higher level, you're putting a voice behind your own movement.

Dean: Right. Yeah.

Jay: The price point for the course, we sell it through webinars, and right now we have an automated webinar that we're trying to tweak. We just started running ... We've been testing the different models, but we feel like we have one that is really, really solid. We just started running ads to it, cold traffic ads, two weeks. So the results, we have a smaller sample size. But I've been selling the course for $1,000. And over that time, there's people that have seen my webinar, or seen my work, or seen me speak, and there's been a couple people that have approached me to say hey, can you and your team just do it for me?

That started ... And that was more so this year, and that started more of a what I would call a boutique agency, working of these clients to ... Because so much of the podcast is a representation of their brand, and a representation of who they are and the content that they're creating.

It's been really great to get here, and this is part of why I joined, partnered up with Nicholas Kusmich and his mastermind, to be around other individuals that are building their business to the next level.

So yeah, does that give you a good snapshot of where I'm at?

Dean: Yep. So now, where do you wanna go? What kind of ... What do we want to expand on today or focus on?

Jay: Well, okay. I guess the biggest question or the biggest thing that I would love to move forward in in creating some level of momentum is I personally feel that there's a ... There's two different audiences within that audience of people that want to launch a podcast. There's a tier one and a tier two. I feel like right now I'm struggling in ... I've tried to test different things, but I've struggled to create something for that tier two audience, which ... The tier one audience is I want to have a podcast, maybe they were where I was a couple years ago, or maybe they're a business owner that they just want to have their content in audio format. They don't have a podcast, so they either work with us and our agency or they take our course, and now they ... The results that they're going to get from that is they're going to have a podcast. Right?

Dean: Right.

Jay: But the tier two audience, which I think, as I've learned more about online marketing and applying some of the Dean Jackson magic within my own systems, and the super signatures, and the nine word emails, which by the way have - and I know I told you this live, or in person, which was I always found it so great that you've always helped people generate revenue before you ever meet them, and before you ever make that touch pint.

But that tier two audience is now that I have a podcast, Jay, what do I do? How do I share it? How do I market it? How do I quote-unquote become omnipresent within my little niche or my small pond. And I find that so much more ... For one I think it's more fun and it's more interesting. And two, I also think potentially there's a new offering there. Because currently I don't have an offering there. And it feels like something that could be easily fixed, I just don't know how to separate it out.

So yeah, that's where I would love to take it.

Dean: What's your take on the purpose of a podcast? Where do you see that fitting? What's your ... I'll tell you my answer, but I would like to hear what your perspective on the purpose and the place and the value of a podcast. Where do you see it?

Jay: Yeah. I think a podcast for ... Any business owner or any quote unquote thought leader or a person that creates content on a consistent basis, I think a podcast in a lot of ways I look at it as a wave of ... Any time, any moment that that person has that insight or that perspective or that idea that they want to ... It's almost like inspiration hits them, that they have, I think, the podcast in audio form is the easiest way for them to take that idea and to be able to share it with their audience. I think for business owners, I think that's really the opportunity of once you've set up the podcast and you have the right systems behind it, that you're able to do that on a consistent basis, giving your audience, giving the community, people that maybe don't know you or been following you, your take on things as your ... It's almost like you're bringing them on your journey.

When I first started, I thought ... Because I didn't really have that much confidence around what I was saying, I didn't know what my messaging was, I didn't ... There was so many things that I think when anyone starts you just don't know. So it was great to have those interviews. But lately, I don't know personally if the interviews are as beneficial when you have a bit of an audience and you're looking to throw to that next level. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

But I think it's amazing to be able to leverage, if me and you do an interview, and let's say you share it or you share a bit of it, it almost doesn't matter, but now it's into that space, and I think there's a lot of pros that come from an interview as well.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jay: But I think ... Yeah.

Dean: So much of it is really the context. What's the purpose of why people listen to podcasts in the first place? I think that it's more ... When you look at certain models of podcasts, if you break it down there's really ... The most common one is one person interviewing different celebrity, in quotes, guests, people who have notoriety or whatever, in that space. So you get the thought leaders, and the authors, or name brand people that people know, so that they are attracted to come and listen to that interview with that person.

But I think that it feels like now, as podcasts are maturing and growing, that that ... I don't know how many different versions people want to hear of somebody interviewing Simon Sinek about the power of why.

Jay: Right.

Dean: Doing a podcast over and over with different persons asking the questions.

Jay: In different ways.

Dean: You know what I mean?

Jay: Or whatever.

Dean: Right. It's kind of like, in a lot of ways, a little bit that kind of ... That is not, I don't think, as popular now. Or useful. Then, the other thing is taking a podcast where you have an ongoing conversation about a specific topic. If you look at ... I do a podcast with Dan Sullivan from Strategic Coach called the Joy of Procrastination. It's an ongoing conversation, no guests, just Dan and I, having an ongoing conversation just between the two of us about procrastination, and all the things around productivity and around that kind of topic. Really, the thing that people are doing is voyeuring in on that advancing in depth look at a topic that's relevant to them.

That can be a really useful model, is to have two people at the same ... Always on the same topic. Another model, and this has become my favorite model right now, is what we're doing right now, where it's actual ... It's of service to somebody. It's really, it's helping solve a problem or amplify an opportunity or ... The purpose of the More Cheese, Less Whiskers podcast is to apply the eight profit activators to a lot of different businesses. And I look at the place of this podcast as a profit activator three lead conversion tool, as opposed to a lead generation tool. This falls into the educate and motivate portion, where people are ... What's happening is they're hearing the different ways that you can take this standard context of the eight profit activators, and how they apply to so many different types of businesses, and the conversation that goes on to come to how to apply it to this business.

That demonstrates all of the things that essentially are the next steps for people in my world. The next steps, the things that people can do, are that I have a live breakthrough blueprint event, where we have 10 or 12 or 14 people in a boardroom where we spend three days going deep in applying the eight profit activators to their business. So to hear, week after week after week, that demonstrated is really what it is. It's very congruent with what the end result is.

I know when you were saying that part of the things you were doing were personal development stuff, and it's a different kind of thing what you're actually offering people. Because what you're offering them doesn't have anything to do with the personal development on a direct line. You know?

Jay: Right. Yeah, and-

Dean: So part of it is to think about how the podcast supports the bigger picture of what you're actually trying to do, which is the service that you're looking to provide, or the value that you're looking to provide, in exchange for money.

Jay: Well, I think it's also great. First of all, I loved when you talked about this in the mastermind, I loved the way that you talked about it and thought about it, because it's coming from a place of service. I love that you say that it's almost like you're building this goodwill with people that are just getting engaging with you.

Dean: Right. Yeah.

Jay: And showcasing ... You're showcasing it and you're not telling me how awesome your eight profit activators are. But you're applying it in a case that could be relevant to many different scenarios.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right. And you see, though, it meets the body of work, the 100 and whatever episodes so far, there's 100 and however many now, different variations of how to apply this. So many different business situations. So you get to see how varied it is. And that's really the thing that is what's exciting about it to me, is that I got this fixed framework of the eight profit activators, and I get joy out of seeing how everything fits together. It's like some people like to do crossword puzzles or Sudoku or whatever, and this is like that kind of a puzzle to see how it all fits together.

Jay: I have a question, just a thought that's coming from this. My course, it's called Podcast Your Brand. We have obviously the Podcast Your Brand framework in terms of how to essentially take your brand and be able to turn that into your podcast. However, I always found it to be ... And I think you're right, because the where, I think almost all my confusion or hesitation comes from is because I've spent so much time creating the personal development content, and it's still obviously a huge passion, it's where I started. But there's obviously a disconnect. Because out of, let's just say 100 people are listening to the personal development stuff, what's the percentages that they actually want to have their own podcast?

Dean: Right, that's my point.

Jay: Yeah. I've always ... And now I've spent the last couple months really building out more of a team to actually leverage my time and leverage me in a lot better ways. Even Kusmich mentioned this one thing to me, which is answering some of the top podcasting questions and creating the beginnings of ... To create content around that. Because it's great that I've gotten where I've gotten from this, but clearly, it's almost like have pillar content around podcasting. But I guess the one thing that I wanted to ask was do you think that having a framework specifically around podcasting could be great, but could it be limiting in the long run if I'm trying to gear myself more for that pure two audience of saying hey, this is all the different ways that you can take either your current content and make it into an audio form and make it work for you, or two, take your podcast and really, depending on what audience you're trying to reach, really do some cool things in the marketing aspect to quote unquote become omnipresent and blanket your niche in that sense.

Dean: Well, I look at the answer to that, but I'm going to say that it's you go at it the other way around. What I mean by that is that you've got your podcast right now, and now you're trying to filter out the audience of that and direct them into what you can offer for them. What you can do with them.

I mentioned that I looked at the podcast as a lead conversion tool. Profit activator three. Now, I don't count on that to generate the leads. I look at let's generate the leads independently so that I know who I'm actually speaking to. Not just who's coming into the audience.

I do a podcast called Listing Agent Lifestyle, and it's a real estate podcast, specifically for real estate agents, because I am of the opinion that the real estate industry right now is a wonderful time to be poised for the future of real estate, and that taking a listing centric approach to the real estate business going forward is going to be a really good thing. Now, I want to be in conversation with people who believe that that is true. So I want to go ... I did a book called Listing Agent Lifestyle, that the future of real estate is better than you think. And that I am advertising, I'm doing Facebook ads, to build that audience. I offer the free book to people, and get them to download, and I'm building the audience that way of people who are attracted to that premise. The premise is Listing Agent Lifestyle.

Now, every week, I do very similar to this podcast, I speak with one real estate agent, and we talk about applying, and I have eight elements of the Listing Agent Lifestyle, for that podcast, and we talk about all of those things every week. And that all leads to the community that I'm building of listing agents at gogoagent.com.

Everything about it is geared to start at the beginning, identify the audience that I want to speak to, gather them, and then have the ongoing conversation of the Listing Agent Lifestyle podcast, and always as a wrapper to whenever you're ready, here's how I can help you. And that it leads to a free trial of gogoagent.com where they can come in, no credit card required, full 30 day access, and then when they come in we get to engage with them, we get them some results in advance, and then I know that if we can help them in that 30 days that that is enough that they'll want to stay for 30 weeks. Then if we get them for 30 weeks, they're in for 30 years. That's really the framework that I'm looking at.

It all fits congruently, and what drives it is constantly adding new people at the beginning. Not using the podcast to do it, but using the book.

If you're going to drive and grow a podcast, it just makes sense to build the audience ahead of time.

Jay: I like that, because I know you're a big believer in having, I think what you called it, the 90 minute book, or having a really great piece, and once again, following that goodwill and being of service-

Dean: That's why I service people, that's exactly it. But that's why I share with people that I'm using the 90 minute book for my own ... I'm using everything that I talk about. I'm using it for my own business, aside from what we're doing, what I'm doing with More Cheese Less Whiskers, than what I'm doing with I Love Marketing. It's the same ... It's exactly the same model. I like to say I'm not only the 90 minute book president and founder, I'm also a member.

Jay: Right.

Dean: ... as a thing. It just shows that in order to use a book as the lead generator like that, there's things that matter. Or that you have a book, that you got a title, that when they read it, your audience says I want to read that book and you've got a way for them to get it. And that's the three things that matter. And it doesn't matter how long it took me to write it, or how many pages it is, or how cleverly I phrased paragraph two of chapter three. None of that matters. What matters is that I've triggered that I want that mechanism, and that's what the title, and the fact that it's a book, and all that stuff ... They don't know or care how many pages it is, and I don't know or care that they'll ever read it. I just want to know that they wanted it.

As soon as they ask for it, the book's done its job, and now I've got all the time in the world with the podcast to communicate with them. Because I know that now they're going to be getting three emails a week from me, and a podcast every week, and there's so much stuff that is going to be adding value to them that they're going to move forward whenever they're ready.

Jay: Yeah. The super signature, I think, if you remember, I showed you, even when you were presenting on it, and I know this has happened probably countless times and with greater numbers and what have you, but I thought it was so funny that when ... I had no idea that I would get a chance to meet you and have you speak pretty much right in front of me. But earlier that day, I had sent out ... I think I had sent out an email the day previous or two days before, but someone had replied. Because in my super signature, it's like hey, if you want us to work with you private ... If you want to work with us one on one, just send us back the word private as the title of the email and tell me a little bit about your business, and we'll be in contact.

It literally happened during the mastermind.

Dean: That's awesome.

Jay: I got this reply. And as you were talking, I was like Dean, This was not set up.  You're the magician and I'm the audience, and you picked a random number. This is really a random number. And it was so cool to have that, and that person turned into an agency client for us, which is quite a big deal, because there's quite a difference between doing a course where you do it by yourself or having our team do it for you.

Dean: That's great.

Jay: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dean: Just so you know, that my standard royalty arrangement for that is that I get half of everything to the right of the decimal place. That's on the honor system. I'll just expect that to arrive.

Jay: Yeah. I'll expect that you'd be invoiced and I'll send it over.

Dean: There we go. Well, that's awesome. But there's the thing that that's really the ... The podcast is really the hub of the conversion system, because from the podcast, you get all the derivative content as well.

So if I was thinking out loud about what your end result is ultimately that you want to, on a macro level you want to get people excited about podcasts, you want to show them all the possibilities with that, and you want to help them actually manifest it on an ongoing basis and get it launched. Where if you start the through line there, what we're looking for is total congruence between profit activator two, get people to raise their hand, profit activator three, educate and motivate, and profit activator four, make super easy offers to make it easy for people to get started.

When you look at what would be the title of the book that your ideal audience would definitely want to own? What would be the indication to you that they're your ideal person? What's the end result that they want?

Jay: Hmm.

Dean: That thinking process. And you don't have to come up with a title like that off the top of your head. But you start this process of ... I wasn't trying to put you on the spot for that. But that's the question that you want to have, is that if you look at the end result, you begin with the end in mind, what you want is you want to help people do this, this, this, this, and this, all around the podcast, that you want to be the catalyst for them and you want to be the ongoing agency provider of that as a thing. And, you've also got the course that if they want to do it themselves, you've got the course to show them, and that could lead to you having services around doing it.

Which is a great model. Because everything that we do, like I talk about using books as a lead generator. I use them myself. I'm demonstrating it, I'm talking about them as case studies, we share the results of other people using books and how that all works out. And then, instead of saying hey, you should use a book, I've got a service and a whole team of people standing by to help people write books. So if you want to write a book, whenever you're ready, we're standing by and we can help you get that book done in 90 minutes of your time.

That, we're creating the solution for the excitement that's coming from me sharing the idea. That's how it all evolved anyway. I was using it, I was doing it myself for my own things, and people were saying wow, I'm going to do that, and I would tell them exactly how I did it, and then they would get blocked with the technical stuff of it. Or getting themselves to take action on it. And then I started, well, let me introduce you to my guy, so I started going through and letting them use the team that I had done. Then it evolved into let's formalize this, and I'll create a whole team, that that's what we'll do. That's when we help hundreds of people write books every year.

Jay: I think it's really ... I like the ongoing conversation aspect, because I think that's, for me, what has been missing in the content that I create. I mean, I do it in the aspect of hey, follow me as I grow and develop on my journey, which is great on some levels, but it almost feels like it is too much about me, even if I don't try to make it about me, if that makes sense.

Dean: Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Jay: Even if I'm sharing my insights and my lifestyle and we're over here doing this, or I was talking to Dean Jackson and I got this great breakthrough over here, it's not like I helped them solve their problem through that piece of content.

Dean: That's exactly right.

Jay: No matter how much I frame it. And I think, even though I think that's great, and this is something I've always struggled with, I have to have a way of segmenting my audience from the very beginning. Because I always ... In the beginning I generated that audience from the podcast, from the interviews and everything else, and all the content that we create. Which is great, but not having that ongoing conversation piece always made it feel more push than pull, if that makes sense.

Dean: Yeah, no, I totally get it.

Jay: Which is not necessarily the way that I've intended it on, but it ends up being the way that it plays out sometimes.

Dean: Yep. Part of the value is gathering the audience ahead of time is, if you have the audience, that's what's going to drive the podcast. But you're driving the audience forward. And that helps. I think if you look at that now, what would then be a format for an ongoing context to educate people and motivate them to take action on getting their own podcast going?

What if the context was that you interview successful podcasters about their thought process and part of getting their podcast launched? Or how ... Do you understand what I mean? That you're talking through, you're breaking down, you're giving the inside look at the people who want to do what these people have already done, and they're giving you a behind the scenes look at their reasoning or their insight or their lessons or approach to podcasting that would give a multi flavored approach to that.

Jay: In a lot of ways, this is almost like taking the traditional testimonial and making it very contextual for individuals.

Dean: Yeah.

Jay: Go ahead.

Dean: That takes a ... The word I use ... Testimonials, I think, are not as great as what I call contentimonials, where you're framing it, first of all, it's about content, and it just happens to be a testimonial. Testimonials often, when you come at it from that, then you keep your eye on, or the focus is on making sure that they say the good things about you kind of thing. Right? But a contentimonial is about let's focus on what actually got the result, and the result happens to be that they use your system or your program for it.

You're just demonstrating people who are having, yeah, who have had a success.

Jay: For sure. For sure. And I like that, because it's selling without selling. It's making a call to action without ... I mean, of course you can have the direct calls of action. I'm saying hey, whenever you're ready, we're here waiting. But it's also embedded in the conversation. And it's in the subtext of it.

To answer your question, I think that there'd be tons of value in talking with other successful podcasters in the way that they've either launched and been able to really leverage it. But if I had to be honest, for all my people that have launched podcasts, there's a huge opportunity in my opinion to be able to jump on the phone with them, kinda doing something like this, where we talk about what their marketing strategy probably needs to be and how they need to implement it within the next three months, six months, next year, dependent on where they're growing. Because some of them are authors, and they want to become speakers, and some of them are coaches and consultants. Some of them already have a business, and they are positioning ... Maybe they're taking the podcast to create an ongoing conversation in their context.

But it's always a little different. I see a lot of value there, and even how I'm on this show right now, and how someone that might be listening to this, how they're finding value if they're going through something similar.

Dean: Yeah. You're right.

Jay: I do have a question though.

Dean: Yeah.

Jay: You use, traditionally, you've spoke about driving a lot of your leads from the book that you give away, essentially.

Dean: Yes.

Jay: What are your thoughts around not using a book?

Dean: Listen, The only thing I'm married to, as opposed to using something else, or in what context?

Jay: Sure. I take it that you're using this book because you've found that to be the best converting mechanism to go from a cold audience to now you're within my nurturing, relationship building sequence, right? Joining that ongoing conversation, right?

Dean: Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jay: I guess for me, if I have to be transparent, I have whatever ... There's some, whatever, mental block I have around, okay not necessarily writing the book but putting out a book and taking it I guess in a more serious ... Having that book versus the, now which is quite popular, which I'm sure you're aware, every other person that launches an Amazon bestseller that gamifies the system in their own way-

Dean: This doesn't have anything to do with being an Amazon bestseller. I could care less about that. It has nothing to do with that. I really don't worry about putting it on Amazon. That's not the point. The thing is that you have a book that is only offered to the person who you want to be in conversation with.

Now, it's really about just getting the conversation started in the right context. What do you use for list building right now? What would be your alternative proposal to building a list of your audience?

Jay: I'll just tell you the opt ins. We've tested a few different things. Because I've had that issue of, okay, we're creating ... There's a bigger audience, so how do I segment the people that would raise their hand for podcasting and content marketing versus those that are just listening for mindset, high performance, that kind of stuff.

The two different opt ins that I've tested and we've worked out, one for the podcasting, is a really simple, what we call is the podcast creation roadmap. It just details ... It's a two, three pager, just details the whole sequencing of idea to podcast launching, and then on the thank you page, we've changed different things, but mostly it's either join our training or it's ... There's been other offers before.

That's one opt in. The other opt in we have is a leadership, is really meant for that leadership crowd. It's a leadership audio training. The way I frame it is the secret audio training that I did that I want to be able to share with them because they're podcast listeners, and they're already used to hearing me in an audio format. So that's how I've segmented-

Dean: How much does it cost you to get opt ins?

Jay: Right now, we started running ads, anywhere, for the podcast creation roadmap specifically, anywhere from two to $3, upwards of five. Five would probably be high. But a lot of our ads through Instagram and Facebook are right in that range.

Dean: Sure. And are you happy with that? Because that's fine, if you can get them. And again, there's no one way. You're essentially, you've got a title of that thing, and you're proving, again, that it's the title and the context of what it is. You're using something even smaller, which like a two or three page roadmap. And that's fine. You don't have to do a book. But you could get a little ... I use the book as setting the context, the manifesto kind of thing for it. If you read the Listing Agent Lifestyle, I lay out the reasoning why I think right now is the best time to be poised for the future of real estate, and here's the eight elements of the Listing Agent Lifestyle, and we amplify them. Then everything else that we talk about in the podcast is all about those.

So if you've got your roadmap, that's a legitimate way to gather the right audience. As long as the title or the people who that is attractive to are the people that you want to be in conversation with. It's fantastic. So if you can get opt ins for two to $3, that would be a good thing. How much, if you get a bundle of 1,000 leads today, and you spend $3,000 on them, how much is that bundle, that portfolio, that asset of 1,000 leads today going to be worth over the next 12 months, 24 months?

Jay: Mmm.

Dean: And that becomes how you decide the math. That's really the thing, is the podcast sets you up to take the long term approach to this.

Jay: And this is what I've always admired about your thinking and the way that you put things together, is I remember that one statistic that you shared with us at the mastermind, which is the 85%, or the 15% of people will buy within let's say 90 days, I think, and then 85% of people will buy within the next two years. So which one do you want to change?

Dean: But if you take it out two years that half of them are going to do something. So if you look at, if we take that thing, that if you look at if 100 people download the podcast roadmap, that they've inquired about starting a podcast, the only reason somebody would do that is because they're considering starting a podcast. So if you take that idea that if we extend it out that the studies show that just over half of the people who inquire about anything will buy what it is they've inquired about within 18 months. I always, conservatively, I extend it out to two years. I can cut it down to 50%. That's my fundamental thing.

If you look at it that 100 people download your roadmap, and if we were to take a snapshot two years later and connect them up and call them all and say hey, two years ago you downloaded this podcast roadmap. Did you start a podcast? That half of them would say yes. That's how they got all that research. They would call people at 90 days, 90 day increments, samplings of millions of people that they inquire, do handling for, and they would ask them that single question. You inquired about faucets. Did you buy any faucet? That question is the basis that they're going to, what ends up happening with people.

If half of them are going to buy, 15% of the ones who do buy, buy in the first 90 days, and 85% buy after 90 days. That's where a podcast really gets this framework established, that you really got the opportunity to carry on a conversation with somebody for a period of time.

If somebody's around for two years and they hear ... If you had a nice mix of contexts for your podcast that you're highlighting people who are celebrity or successful, well known podcasters to break down their advice for getting the podcast started or the method that they used, and you're doing this More Cheese, Less Whiskers type of approach of interviewing and consulting with your audience people who want to brainstorm and go through the process of getting a podcast started, and then some episodes you're highlighting people who started in the beginning, took your advice, got their podcast started, and now they're successful, that journey is a very motivating thing for people.

But it's all around that context of getting your podcast started and all of the wonderful things that can happen because of it.

And then, whenever you're ready, here's how we can help you get started. Take our podcast scorecard, or take our ... Join our online program. Or I'm doing a ... Or let us help you. Let us do it for you.

Jay: Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, it makes a lot of sense, and it covers parts of the conversation that you want to be having. One thing that you mentioned, and I know we're coming close to the mark, but it's incredible, but one thing you mentioned, which I don't do in the podcast creation roadmap.  It's a bit of a buy in piece, from what I gathering. You mentioned the manifesto, your values of why you believe what you believe.

Dean: Right. Yeah.

Jay: In the podcast creation roadmap, you're asking me how do I feel about the people that are coming through, it could improve. There's room for improvement. Because though we are getting the great opt ins on the front end, is it the right person converting ... What's the conversions on the back end, and is it as high as we want it to be? And I think part of that is not including the belief system and the manifesto. This is where I see a lot of ... There's a very obvious opportunity there, because by introducing that, you're introducing your way of thinking into the conversation, which that's part of the ongoing conversation, which I feel like in my podcast creation roadmap, because it's two three pages, it's really like hey, how do you launch a ... It's almost like if you ask Google, how do you launch a podcast-

Dean: It's a transactional thing.

Jay: ... and you're reading it ... Exactly. It's very transactional. It's very informative, like oh, I just learned the steps, okay, bye. You know?

Dean: Yeah.

Jay: Not everybody.

Dean: What if you expanded that to ... Yeah, what if you expanded that thing to be the podcast creation field guide, and it was a book where you narrate ... That's why I say in 90 minutes, the way that we imagine it is what would you want to convey to people if you had one hour. If I invited you on a radio show to explain your position, your thoughts, your best advice for people, and everybody listening was a potential future podcaster? What would you say in that one hour to really get your, establish the foundation of the relationship? So that you get people that if they buy into that, then they want to continue on the conversation.

That's what it really comes down to, is the benefit that you get from it.

Jay: I think it's quite brilliant, because it's taking the ... We do webinars, and so now ... I used to do a live webinar. I went through that whole secret thing of doing a live webinar once a week, and just figuring out what the messaging ... There's this idea in webinars, which I'm sure you're aware of, which is like if you buy into this big idea, some people call it the domino effect, it's like if you buy into this, then it's almost like eventually you will be able to work with us, because you believe with us on that one big idea. And if you believe in that, then it's almost like you're lying to yourself if you don't join our programs or our groups. And it's okay ... Maybe I could frame it a little better. But it's like that one big idea in the webinar taken to written form into something that people understand, which a lot of times is a book or something that they feel great value from.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. That's really ... I think you've got a really good foundation here. I think you've got a really good idea, and I think from what we've talked about, I can see how connecting, book ending the podcast with getting the right people listening ahead of time and not depending on the podcast to build the audience, build the audience and direct them to the podcast independently.

The other bookend being the offers. Here's what to do whenever you're ready. That's really what it comes down to. And the podcast itself is the ongoing conversation that drives all the derivative content that you can get. All the ... I'd send three emails a week that are all derived from something that I've said on the podcast.

Jay: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think you're right. I think just the idea, if I took away ... I mean, there's a lot of different takeaways. But just moving the podcast from the front to the ongoing piece changes the way that I think about content. It's not that we weren't ... We were doing interviews and I was putting out different solo episodes and what have you, almost like insights along the week. But I could see that ... And some people followed along, and that was great. But having, being very, very congruent, as you would say, to the person that is listening to the content that you're creating, to the offer that you potentially have down the line, I could see that, thinking quite powerful in terms of growing and scaling what I have going on.

Dean: Yeah. And then it becomes just the consistency of it. Then it's the stamina to do it for 100 weeks.

Jay: Yeah.

Dean: Right, which is two years. 100 weeks and you are ... Magic can happen.

Jay: We'll have to do a round two of this in 100 weeks.

Dean: There we go. Perfect. That's what I love to do.

I love it. So what's your action plan here? What do you think you're going to do as a result of the conversation?

Jay: A couple things. One, I think that there's a massive opportunity in doing what you were saying, in having a More Cheese, Less Whiskers format, where it's not necessarily about the vanity metrics of podcasting as much as it's about the conversation and who's listening. Which is always what the podcast is around. But even more so because it's connected to our entire back end currently.

But I also think that in having a longer form opt in, whether you want to think of it as a book or not, but having some piece where they're buying in to your manifesto, your values, I think sets up for the right type of client. And we're working with the right people, but could we onboard more of the right people? Yes, certainly. That's definitely one thing that I'm looking to do to be able to continue to grow, to be able to continue to grow in scale and ultimately impact the people that we want to be able to serve.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.

Jay: Those are definitely my two big things.

Dean: Well, I love it. I can't wait to watch it all unfold. We'll definitely have to do a follow up to see how it all happens.

Jay: Yeah. Well, I appreciate the insight. This is massively valuable, actually. I mean, as long as people are willing to come on and share, which that's the whole purpose of a podcast sometimes. These conversations happen almost ... Before podcasting, before people were able, before the internet, these conversations happened, and these conversations are happening every day, it's just a matter of now we have the ability to share it to be able to provide some goodwill for everybody around us too.

Dean: That's absolutely, exactly right. Well thanks for participating. I like that. I think that was a really good conversation.

Jay: Awesome, Dean. I really appreciate you, and I'll definitely keep you informed on how we grow and move from here.

Dean: Thanks Jay. We'll talk to you soon.

Jay: All right Dean. Talk soon.

Dean: Bye.

Jay: Bye.

Dean: And there we have it. Another great episode. Jay's a good sport. I know he's going to do amazing things. I can't wait to see how it all unfolds.

Couple of things that we talked about that are ways that I could potentially help you. We mentioned our using a book as a lead generator for the introduction to the podcast, make sure that you're gathering the right people. And I shared that I have a whole team of people standing by to help you write a book, and it really takes 90 minutes of your time. We handle all of the other things, technical, design, getting it all set up, editing, transcribing, doing the whole thing for you. And easy way to get started with that is to go to 90minutebook.com, and you can download a copy of the 90 minute book, so you get to see exactly what it looks like, and how you can maybe use something like that for your business.

If you want to continue the conversation here, you can go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com, and download a copy of the More Cheese, Less Whiskers book, and you can be a guest on the show by clicking the be a guest link.

We talked a little bit about scorecards, and one of the best ways to see how your business is either being slowed or is growing by applying the eight profit activators, you can go to profitactivatorscore.com, and try our online profit activator scorecard. It'll give you some insight into how the eight profit activators are either creating opportunity for you or that there's some need for you to work on that particular area.

That's it for this week. Tune in next time and we'll have another great episode ready for you. Have a great week.