Ep126: Kevin Dobrynski

Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast we're talking with Dr Kevin Dobrynski in Oak Brook, Illinois. It was a great conversation as Kevin has a great desire and heart for helping people with depression and anxiety.

He's had some personal experience of this, and as a result, he's learned some really amazing techniques that get great results for people. 

We talked about how to approach something like this, where you have a product or service that could help millions of people all over the world. Anyone who has depression and anxiety, anywhere, and we talked about how to rein that scope in initially to focus on a local market.

Focusing on an epicenter first, those people closest to you, and then going outward, can really make a difference in what you can achieve. I'll let you listen in so you can see how we actually came to that thought, because we spent a lot of time thinking about how to optimize and document this protocol to share with others.

You're really going to enjoy this episode, especially if you've got something that could help or be wanted by people anywhere at anytime.

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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 126

Dean: Kevin Dobrynski.

Kevin: Mr. Dean Jackson.

Dean: Or Dr. Kevin I should say.

Kevin: Kevin works.

Dean: Okay, good. How do we say your last name?

Kevin: Yeah that's a tongue twister. It's pronounced Dobrzynski.

Dean: Dobrzynski, okay so that middle Z and stuff is silent, all right.

Kevin: Yeah, a little.

Dean: All right, well welcome. I'm excited. I've got done one More Cheese Less Whiskers conversation already today. I'm in my comfy chair.

Kevin: Excellent.

Dean: I got my tablet. I'm fully hydrated and I'm ready to scheme.

Kevin: I love it.

Dean: Why don't we start with, maybe we could hear the Dr. Kevin story and then, we can see where we can go from there.

Kevin: Sure. Well, I don't want to bore everybody and by the way, I appreciate you having me on. I'm looking to get some, not only insights from you, but also try to provide some value to those that are listening. Just really who I am that's why I'm here, just try to help those in need. My story is, it's rather long, but I'll try to make it fairly short. Back I think it was 2008, I was at my first marketing seminar. I think you know this guy, his name is Eben Pagan. This is the-

Dean: Yes, of course.

Kevin: … first marketing seminar that I attended. I learned at that point from Eben that God I have to learn this copywriting thing. From there, it snowballed into going to a John Carlton seminar and diving into copywriting. I did some work for a guy by the name of Drayton Berg pro bono for a few months.

Dean: I know Drayton.

Kevin: Yeah, what a great guy.

Dean: Yes.

Kevin: So knowledgeable, great sense of humor. I really fell in love with this marketing thing and it came in handy because in about 2009, a year later, my wife had suffered from thyroid cancer. She had a full thyroidectomy, where they pulled her thyroid out. Mainstream medicine basically and she had full-blown Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune disorder, which your body attacks your own body. In this case, it's the thyroid. We went to the medical system here in Chicago because we've got great teaching hospitals, but what I realized very quickly is that they didn't have an answer for this. My wife went downhill really, really quickly. I had really to find an answer. I wasn't an expert in this space at the time, but I became one overnight just to help my wife. We turned her around in about six weeks. I realized then that she can't be the only one with this problem, there's got to be a lot of people that have this issue and it turns out there were millions of people that have thyroid condition problems.

At that point, I put this program together, wrote my first e-book and then, I dove into selling it online via Google AdWords. I woke up one day and it was the greatest day and it turned out not to be the greatest day because I found out that I had $300 in my account from selling e-books overnight, but at the same time, Google shut my account.

Dean: Yeah, you're 10 years too late I mean.

Kevin: Yes, I was using this very aggressive copy writing, of course that I learned and I didn't understand a lot about some of the policies etc. Then, I jumped online through Facebook and was very successful in using Facebook early on as well. I basically just took the title of … By the way, at this point, I decided to get my reach, to expand the reach to help more people by publishing this book, called The HypoThyroid Diet. I started an online program to help people a little bit more, a little more hand-holding and get in-depth with this program. I used Facebook and basically, I took the title of my book, which I tested before I even published it. I drove people from Facebook to a lander in which basically, I told my story and then, they had to click over to another page, which was essentially a VSL, selling this is $47 program. Long story short, I was pretty successful in that. I was able to put a buck in, get $3 out. Then, of course Facebook went through their algorithm changes and I got a little frustrated. Anyway, I kind of got out of the business, in that sense took a hiatus. I also had a brick and mortar business, which I have sold, but recently about a year and a half ago, I went to work for a gentleman I think you know by the name of Dr. Daniel Amen.

Dean: Okay, yes, I know Daniel.

Kevin: Yeah, so he opened a clinic in Chicago and he wanted me to come in to do essentially their marketing. I was also a practitioner and he says, “You could see patients if you'd like.” It was a great opportunity. Now, through the course of this last three years in about 2015, to go back a little bit, I was dealing with balance of depression and anxiety and a little bit of fatigue. These episodes would last about a day and it would be two days out of the week, where I would have these. Now, I wasn't dealing with any loss in my life. This wasn't a mental issues, biological and I knew it. Luckily for me, then I tried to find some answers for it. Then, when I started working with the clinics, Daniel says, “Do you want an image of your brain?” I was a little apprehensive because as a kid, I had ADHD and it was very impulsive and I played football for 10 years and suffered a number of concussions. I thought about it, I said, “Well, I've got to get to the bottom of this.” I go in and we do the brain SPECT imaging. Daniel looks at it and he says, “What did you do to your brain?” I said, “I played football for 10 years.”

Dean: Oh boy.

Kevin: [He was a little upset at that because what it does your brain. We saw some of the damage and long story short, he wanted me to try a couple products to help what I was dealing with. Now, because I'm a natural health care practitioner, I had a very clean diet, I sleep eight hours, I meditate. I do all the things necessary, so I didn't think it was really going to work, but lo and behold, these episodes that would last a couple days out of the week went down to having one in 30 days. Then, they were gone. However, they slipped back a little bit and I did a little bit more investigation. I did what they call an organic acid test, which looks at metabolites in the urine. I found out that I had a bacterial infection in my gut. I was asymptomatic, so I didn’t have GI issues, but what this bacterial infection does is it inhibits you to essentially make your happy hormones. Once I took care of that I was able to deal with and I didn't have the anxiety or depression anymore, which is phenomenal.

Dean: Wow.

Kevin: Here I am, a guy, 40 years old, in my 40s, suffering from this issue and I have all the background knowledge to help myself that's how I did it, but I'm thinking about these millions of people that suffer from this issue of depression and anxiety. They're being medicated. There's a time and place for that and the same thing with therapy, there's a time and place for that but when people going for therapy for months and years on end and medication to medication were not getting to the root cause. I have a real passion for this and my focus is to go out there and to help these millions of people that are suffering.

Dean: How will you help them? What do you offer them?

Kevin: I have a strategic approach to using these very conservative and natural modalities to help them. I mean things as simple as using diet and there's an acronym I have, which is called DIGIT. We look at deficiencies. We look at infections. We look at things like trauma. We look at toxicity and we look at inflammation. It's a step-by-step approach. My focus really is, eventually I will put out a publication, but I know most people don't read books, even though I think it is a phenomenal marketing opportunity to get people in the door and to I think start to work with you on a very easy level. In fact, my book, The HypoThyroid Diet, if it wasn't for that I wouldn't have been able to help thousands of people I've helped, so book by the way and I know that you do that. It's a big part of what you do and I think it's a great resource, but for me, I'm trying to get up and run really quickly with this. My focus is …

I've done programs before with the thyroid conditions and I know a lot of people don't finish the programs, go through it. I want to actually create a community and a monthly membership platform, where people can start, we can do a very simple, low barrier, no-brainer offer for a dollar in which people can go in for a week and get a quick win or at least some aha discoveries and then, month by month, just allow them to continue the training. Then, stay in touch with us, get community support and we can do Q&S with them as well.

That's at least my focus early on and then, of course, we can take it to the next level, but I want not only to reach millions of people, but I also want to make sure that what I'm doing is really the best possible thing to get them to take action and keep it accountable.

Dean: Okay, all right, so one of the things like what else draws my attention is that the conversation that we're having right now. We talked a little bit about who the people are who we're trying to approach and then, the next level of the conversation is about the packaging of it, a dollar trial and a monthly membership and all these things. I want to hear about the solution first. When we talk about it, if we take somebody like that, it's a broad group, there are a lot of people, who suffer from depression and anxiety and feels like they're two separate things even that some people can have anxiety without depression or are they always linked? Do you treat them as one anything?

Kevin: About 50% of the time, they're linked. Yeah, the focus is depression. I say anxiety because a lot of those that do have depression do have anxiety, but really the focus is depression and to really narrow it down even more, I'm going to be starting with really the low-hanging fruit and this group of people that are very susceptible to this. It's the same group of women that I've worked with before because thyroid conditions affect women a lot more than men and it's typically these women in their 40s that suffer both from thyroid conditions and depression.

Dean: Okay. That is cool. Now, when you look at it, if we were to take one person like that what's the best outcome that you could create for somebody?

Kevin: Well, first of all, it's to you know most-

Dean: What do they have to do, like what would be your go-to protocol for it?

Kevin: Yeah, well, it's interesting. Years ago, look at depression as being this chemical imbalance and they're looking at serotonin. However, today, if you look at the research and the literature, depression is an inflammatory condition. One of the biggest bangs for your buck when it comes to reducing inflammation, again there's other things involved and this is an area, where research is right now is literally just starting with food and starting to help people evaluate food sensitivities, to stabilize blood sugar. Those are two of the biggies in how we can get a quick start for them is starting with inflammation food.

Dean: Wow, okay, so all of those things that create ways of getting people to switch to whole foods as opposed to processed foods and inflammatory things.

Kevin: Right.

Dean: Grains and all that.

Kevin: Yeah.

Dean: Okay and then, what else?

Kevin: Looking at that is a biggie and also starting to look at deficiencies. There are some very common deficiencies that people have that have depression. These are B vitamin 6, 12. It can be folate. It can be fatty acids. It can be amino acids and magnesium, zinc, so it's these handful of nutrients that people are missing and it's very difficult to get them through food. One of the thoughts that I have because I have access to a lot of products, nutriceuticals that deal strictly with practitioners is to give access to these individuals at another tier if they want to access these products at a discount. They can start working on these deficiencies. You can go ahead and you can go through some testing and I think that's going to be, I'm going to hold off on the testing for those individuals that want some more hand-holding and maybe some one-on-one help. Looking at testing, there's a cost associated with it, there's a cumbersome associated with it and most people are deficient anyway. Looking at these deficiencies and giving them access to these nutrients is another step and another piece of the puzzle.

Dean: Okay and so that's part of the protocol, so food and nutrients. What else would there be?

Kevin: Along with that there is going to be obviously exercise is a big part of the puzzle as well. We know increases what we call BDNF or brain-derived neurotrophic factor. This is fertilizer for the brain and so between this physical movement and other things such as meditation, we know definitely improves the brain. These are some of the actual physical movements or what we call exercise to actually help people with depression. That's another piece of the puzzle.

Dean: How quickly does this work for someone, like what would be the outcome somebody could get?

Kevin: Without hesitation, of course case to case, it's much different and that's why you have to use multi-modality stick to help these individuals. I mean without a doubt, there are people that can have a real quick win within less than 30 days and within a couple weeks, I feel very confident that we can help people doing that because I've seen it happen in the past with other conditions.

Dean: Then, it would just be a matter of that they have to stay the course then with whatever?

Kevin: Well, not only stay the course. My focus really Dean is to take people that are in this situation, where there's desperation. To take from desperation to an area where they're determined, determination and then, to a point where they're actually dominant or really dominating their life really to help them through this whole transition. That's part of my goal. We would start with obviously getting them out of the situation they're in and then, using things such as what people focus on and so what I call them the four Fs. We talked about two already, which is food. The other one was fitness. The other one happens to be your focus and using mindset and help people get to the next level. Then, if people are struggling, there's going to be a certain subset that are going to continue struggle because some of these simple things may not be helping is to use the other F, which is functional medicine and some of the modalities testing, etc., that we can use in functional medicine to help.

Dean: I'm just trying to get a picture for the result that somebody could get, like if you're looking at it, what would be … Is some of it, is what you're teaching them something that could be taught in a shorter period of time and then, they stick with it or is it something that there's multiple steps to it that each new piece of information is bringing something new?

Kevin: Yeah, there are definitely different steps. For instance, there's an area of the one thing I didn’t bring up, I had mentioned early on is looking at genetics. Most people don't understand it. They don't understand that they have with the called genetic like I did. It's a piece of the puzzle for me and so, it's really this long-term educational process. Yeah, we can get them to have early wins. I can put together probably a program and honestly, it's one thing I thought about is that I'm starting with this build it as I go, starting this program and then, I could sell it as a one-off. There's no doubt about it.

Dean: Yeah because what I'm looking for is like what does it take to literally get the result before we start looking at how we package it and price it is to look at what's the actual like requirement, if I gave you 10 people and said, “We need to get a result for eight of these 10 people here.”

Kevin: Yeah, so we first start what the inflammation part, which is food based. Then, we look at deficiencies and again, for me, it would be adding supplementation to the program and what they're currently doing. We could cover genetics. That's just more information for them, but then there's a point where we have to look a little bit deeper, which can take longer, which is looking at possible infections or toxicity. That quick win comes with the exercise. It comes with the supplementation and diet.

Dean: How difficult is it to look for the toxicity and infections or what everyone talked about doing that urine test or …

Kevin: Yeah, it's not super difficult. Kits are mailed out to people's home and they basically pee in a cup or yeah what have you.

Dean: Or they could do it on site or whatever with you, if they were there. Are you thinking about that this would be a thing that you could do at your clinic or remotely?

Kevin: Yeah, this is something that I'm focusing on doing remotely just to expand the reach.

Dean: Okay, so part of the thing that what we look for here right is that before … You're in Chicago still?

Kevin: Correct.

Dean: Part of the thing is if you're going to help all the people in the world with anxiety and depression, you may as well start with helping all the people in Chicago. It's this fallacy of the bigger pie concept, where if I've got this broader reach.

Kevin: Yeah.

Dean: Then I just need to get a fraction of them, but I'm saying that if you take all the people within a 10-mile radius of your clinic there and help eradicate anxiety and depression from there that that's the intensity that's sort of the best laboratory that's going to make it really fly because part of the thing is to create a protocol that can become renowned. Part of that is being able to get and document the results for people. My fear about just like starting with diet and stuff as general things doesn't feel like to somebody in depression, almost feels like if the first thing were testing to give somebody a snapshot or a blueprint of what's causing their depression and anxiety, like if it is inflammation, if that's true, what are the markers that indicate that they have this inflammation compared to people who have gone through your protocol and don't have the inflammation. Therefore, don't have depression. You need to think about it as this journey from somebody shows up at your office and you benchmark them on the quantitative things that are visible and measurable that you can do as well as sort of quantifying the qualitative things that they have of their self-reporting of the feelings of depression, the frequency of the depression, things like that where you can really do a pretty comprehensive snapshot of what their state is right now.

Then, after taking them through your protocol to show people at the 30-day mark, at the 60, 90 day mark, where now what would be the markers of inflammation that you would measure, just I mean a few.

Kevin: Sure, yeah like homocysteine and C-reactive protein, hemoglobin A1c, so yeah blood sugar and inflammatory markers, yeah.

Dean: Okay, so now if you humanize those, I mean making them not sound like-

Kevin: Oh, I get you.

Dean: Yeah, tests, so here's the thing, if you're looking at it that it is the inflammation rating, like if somebody's CRP is this and somebody's A1c is this and you can show that that on a scale on a range of what acceptable levels or optimal levels are. What you're doing is … If everything that you're doing is the protocol that you're suggesting is with an eye on moving that. If somebody knows coming into the journey that of course, you're depressed and of course, you're anxious because look at you, you've got this. You're inflamed on all the markers that we do for inflammation, you're at the top level of those. You've got this infection or we can say, “We can rule out infection,” if it's not that because you've done the test. People get certainty in the answer of why you believe they're depressed and anxious right now right, why your clinical diagnosis on paper is of course you're depressed, anxious because you've created that environment here in your body. That's what is manifesting because of all of these numbers. These numbers all prove it.

Now, here's what we need to do is we need to get this CRP. We need to move that from what to what would be an expectation that you could create or your A1c, we need to move from this to this and how quickly can we affect those to get them into a healthy range.

Kevin: Makes total sense.

Dean: If somebody wants to come in for answers, I think that would be the thing that at least now I know why I'm depressed because so much of the things about the way we as a society think about depression is it's a mental thing.

Kevin: Right exactly.

Dean: You're saying that it's a physiological thing.

Kevin: Yes and actually trying to come up with some of the verbiage too, so people when they see that and they're like, “Aha.” It's just like the work we do in our clinics. We hire psychiatrists to come in. My background is natural medicine and what we do is we deal with the people that have already been to multiple physicians, they took multiple medications, multiple diagnoses. These are the tough case and that's when we start doing the brain imaging and that leads to the next test and to the next test etc. I guess, for me because I start with and our doctors will send patients back to me and I start with the basics. I start looking at food and these things that we just talked about. My thought was, “Go for the quick wins and let's just start with that.”

Dean: I mean it feels like you should go for the quick comprehensive diagnosis that that alone is going to give somebody hope that it's not just a suggestion of, “Well, if you ate better and exercised and meditated a little bit,” if that would bring you out of it, it's without the real reason for it that is going to fall probably on deaf ears because there's no like, it's just good advice. It's not specifically, medically protocol advice.

Kevin: Yeah that's interesting because how I looked at what I was doing with, it was until I put all the pieces together. I knew what genetics were and then, I saw the damage from some of the concussions and then, I had the test. It was just like aha. I guess my question is how do I do that I guess and I know that sweeping around, coming back to you'd mentioned starting in Chicago, but if I'm going to do, let’s say just try to service more people, how would I take a model like that and just make it I guess accessible to people wherever?

Dean: Well, you've got to prove it first. This is the thing.

Kevin: Yeah, I'm sure.

Dean: We're at the stage, where we need an end of one study and then, we need an end of 10 right, where you got to take this protocol first. You got to have a flagship, your evidence. You've got hypotheses right now and you've maybe got anecdotal evidence that somebody who eats better and does all these things that they're saying that they got over their depression and anxiety, but that's not the same as being able to quantify it with markers that say, “If you follow this protocol, this is the outcome that we're able to get.”

Kevin: Yeah, so what you're suggesting is start with the minimal viable testing to help people.

Dean: I want to start from not necessarily the minimum viable testing. I want to start with the most optimal testing, the thing that is going to help you 100% certainty get or as close to that as you can, get a really good understanding of actually what's going on. We're not trying to make it easy. I'm trying to make it certain.

Kevin: Interesting.

Dean: Right, so at first, I want to start with let's put aside, this is where these logistics goggles come in and we start trying to fit a solution into a $1 trial and $39 a month or whatever. We're trying to get a solution that would be manageable at that level. What I'm saying is let's forget that for now.

Kevin: Sure.

Dean: Let's get to a point of what would it take to 100% solve this problem with certainty for somebody and enroll people in being the lead patient one of this to show it. Then, start thinking about, “Well, how can we replicate it?” I mean we're talking about the scientific method here basically. We have a hypothesis that this protocol that you've identified can, and you've seen it happen, present a better result, an outcome for somebody. What you haven't done is documented in a scientific way. That it's duplicable. I think that starting with regardless of what it costs, what does it do for certain and then, we can start taking out things that you aren't necessary.

Kevin: Yeah, I get it.

Dean: Working backwards and starting with the people because there are people, who want to solve it for good. If you can create a protocol that is then would be insurance approved, if you can show the things that you're able to get that outcome and it might be a savings for them on approved antidepressants and medications for life.

Kevin: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, starting with that initial model, we would have to definitely dive deeper, again looking at those other things that I’ve mentioned, looking at the deficiencies and the toxicities as well. Yeah, it would be some additional testing without a doubt.

Dean: Right and so what would that kind of thing cost to do like those tests?

Kevin: Yeah, now the ballpark figure, you're looking into over probably a thousand bucks between yeah.

Dean: For somebody, who suffers with depression or anxiety or someone whose loved one suffers from depression and anxiety that would be nothing to be rid of it and that would solve the situation with certainty.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean without a doubt, I mean that's essentially who comes to our clinics because the price point then is actually, it's closer to $4,000 for them to do multiple images and then, go through this whole battery of testing and it sit down with the doc.

Dean: Then, you've got the lighter protocol of that is based on then evidence-based stuff.

Kevin: Right, absolutely.

Dean: Now, you're saying, so even if we don't do the test and listen, we've tested all this number of people. Here's what the things in common, the markers of depression and anxiety, the makeup, just like through experience. I mean just like what Daniel has done. You guys have seen, you've done enough brain scans that you've got there's another one of those. The different patterns that he's identified that all people who have ADD have some form of this activity or this low activity here, there's always something right that they can look at the brain and see.

Kevin: Right, exactly.

Dean: He can tell you what's going on by looking at the scan. I'm saying that you're taking an overriding look at the environment that creates that depression. If you're looking at it that you can almost think about it as creating a proprietary blend of markers that could be an index, a depression index kind of thing.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. It's within the body, just as you mention and having markers. I see what you're saying, yeah, I have this model.

Dean: Because I imagine that the chemical imbalance or chemical recipe to create depression is different than the chemical composition of anxiety.

Kevin: Yeah, it could be one and the same, but that's where genetics come in, if you have certain genetics, certain snips.

Dean: Yeah, so that kind of thing, where creating that kind of a protocol and documenting it, it's almost like you're over investing time and energy into the prototype, creating this as the prototype, documenting it on everything and being able to show the progression, like this is what happens in on some of these. First, if you do the comprehensive like workup, I think that certainly for somebody to see that and look at that and just have at least an answer that it's not all in their head that’s going to change people's physiology. Without doing that it's just advice. Then, they're not really a 100% invested in making the dietary changes and exercising. If it's like if they're doing it with a scientific like a reason for it and an outcome that we're working towards and measuring and they can see the progress that if you're showing them that these eight markers are going to show. You go down and you're looking at your A1c is at this. Your CRP is at this. Your hemoglobin is that this. Your whatever other markers you do, if you do the infection testing, you're clear on infection. You're perfect on that. It's not an infection. It's not this toxin that could be creating it or it is.

If somebody by looking at those 10 things or however number it is that would be create an index for them that you're able to say, “Of course, you've got depression, this is why, but then this is what we need to do is we need to get that number down here or we need to raise this number here or whatever, if it's up or down, whatever the thing is and here's the things that we need to do to do that. We can do it in 30 days, in 60 days, in 90 days, whatever it would take.” If they can show the progression and sure enough, here we've got now this is what happened. You're documenting the whole thing like a case study that you see.

Kevin: Yeah and the nice thing about that even though it makes complete sense because obviously it's now, not only can you show people why they're having their issues they're having, but there's more going to get to the root cause and have the outcome that they want [inaudible 00:41:51]. What's nice about it too is you could do this remotely. I mean you don’t necessarily have to be in Chicago.

Dean: No of course.

Kevin: You can do this in Toronto or what have you, just by getting you which you need.

Dean: Yes, but I'm saying that part of the thing too is by doing it right there, you're also going to then constrain and will amplify the marketing around it because when you take the globe, the world as the, you're trying to get the message out to the world, you've got the opportunity to probably convince a 100% of the people 1% of the way. Whereas if you take 1% of the people and convince them a 100% of the way that's what we're looking for.

Kevin: That's interesting. Yeah, actually Chicago is not a small market.

Dean: That's what I'm saying.

Kevin: This is very larger, yeah, yeah.

Dean: Yeah, why you are so down on that. Are you in a suburb of Chicago or are you in specifically Chicago?

Kevin: Yeah, I'm in a suburb of Chicago.

Dean: Yeah, so what suburb are you in?

Kevin: I'm right near Oak Brook actually.

Dean: Okay, so Oak Brook, nice there yeah. I've got friends in Oak Brook. When you look at Oak Brook and you just say like imagine if your protocol limited you to the boundaries of Oak Brook for instance, just as a thing, do you think there are any depressed and anxious people in Oak Brook, Illinois?

Kevin: Oh, I doubt it.

Dean: Yeah, I doubt it too, right.

Kevin: It's probably half the population of Oak Brook right now but not half, yeah, another percentage.

Dean: What if by doing that you really focused on getting the word out in Oak Brook, like you're running for mayor, like you are the leader of the Stamp Out Depression and Anxiety Party. Your mission is to rid Oak Brook of depression and anxiety, what if you were so successful that there's a New York Times article, featuring the happiest place on earth is Oak Brook. There’s no depression and anxiety.

Kevin: Wow that's so interesting. What a take on that. It's great.

Dean: That's kind of the intensity or the thing that you can do because right now, we haven’t taken it out to anybody yet. It's like start with let's really make it be the epicenter of the cutting-edge treatment of depression and anxiety. That your protocol and your measurements that you look at it, just like Daniel was able to really pioneer the brain scans and only after having done it, see the patterns, like when he's seen enough brain scans of people with ADD, he can recognize that ring that's the one of the biggest markers of it that if you have your index that you've created and that in that when you look at that's the first thing that you do for people with anxiety and depression. That you've got this marker that without fail, the people who are anxious and depressed have high elevated levels of this, this, this, this and this or it's some underlying toxin like this, this or this or infection like this, this or this. You're creating that sort of index and then, you've also got the contrast of the people, who have gone through your protocol and changed those markers and they're gone.

If you have a cumulative kind of index, a score, if you have certain weighting on something and you create a score that is some combination of those things that if you're able to take their score from a 10 to a four that there's no depression and anxiety among people with that score four or lower on this Dobrzynski Depression Index.

Kevin: The whole thing is interesting because here I'm thinking about how to go out and actually create the largest impact by spreading this out. There's no doubt about it that I would have impact on a lot of people, but was actually going, doing it this way, reverse engineering and actually having a prototype first of all too because it will have to be a higher price point, there'll be less people in order to obviously profit and keep the engine going so to speak.

Dean: Yeah, but then also because it's based on this protocol that maybe it costs $4,000 or whatever it is to do it that maybe because of all the evidence and all the things that you have that somebody could then listen in 80% of the cases, these things were definitely present, like the inflammation. In some rare cases, there was toxic issue or there was infection. It's more common that there's inflammation and if that the diet and the nutrients and the exercise could for 70% of the people get the results and maybe if it doesn't, then they can escalate up to the next level.

Kevin: Yes, no, absolutely, definitely.

Dean: You start with the polls. We start with let's solve it at the highest level. Let's solve it for certain.

Kevin: Yeah, definitely, use all the testing we can. Well, it makes a lot of sense Dean. You're smart guy.

Dean: That way, you build a track record and you build like … You're pioneering something and that's an important thing. It's like there's no disputing that Daniel Amen is the leader in brain scanning because he basically pioneered the whole thing.

Kevin: Right without a doubt. The business will be 30 years and over 150,000 images.

Dean: Right.

Kevin: Which is pretty fantastic.

Dean: Yeah, I think that whole thing, now it's almost like you can recruit people initially like I would look at going with levels of magnitude that you starting with one and doing this, really creating the case. You could probably, if you've already been helping people like this or have you been helping people already with this?

Kevin: I mean this is looking at depression and anxiety. Let's just call it depression as far as what's being done in the field right now, using these difference modalities. Unfortunately, most people end up going to a GP or maybe they go to psychiatrist and unfortunately, they don't do testing, especially not in this depth. That's why there’s a huge problem. It's Russian roulette with the different medications.

Dean: Try this though.

Kevin: Not getting to root cause.

Dean: Try this, does that work better, yeah.

Kevin: That's a huge part of the problem with the medical model is they're not looking. They're not doing any investigative work into these different areas, where it's actually where the root causes are.

Dean: I think when I was saying about the levels of magnitude here that looking at taking one and really going, documenting everything. Then, looking to duplicate that with 10 people and do a study of 10. That's going to really give you the thing because if it happens that way, then you can ramp up to a 100, but part of the thing is not jumping magnitudes until you've crossed the levels, like not thinking … Because you're thinking big, you're thinking helping thousands of people, but we haven't done the actual documentation of helping one yet.

Kevin: Right, makes sense.

Dean: It's not going away. Depression and anxiety is not a fad. It's not a fad. That's a short-term thing that's happening. It's a solid thing that's going to be around for the foreseeable future.

Kevin: Yeah, unfortunately.

Dean: Patiently building the approach to it is really going to be a big win because the truth is the faster that you can start documenting and getting the result, like the faster you can get a 30, 60, 90 day case study on it that really leads the way for you to get the next people in and extend your lead patient to the six-month results and the one year results and that they're constantly improving.

Kevin: Yeah, taking them from where they are, not to just getting them back to normal, but getting them to a point where they're optimized.

Dean: Yes.

Kevin: Yeah that's absolutely the goal, at least for me, it is. Not getting people to just feeling good, I mean most people walk around, they think they feel good, but no, we want to be able to take people, so they feel great. That way, they're better parents, they're better coworkers, better business owners etc., etc., and they're giving back. The health people are, they're just able to not only have a better life themselves, but more around them and give more back.

Dean: Yeah. I think this is great because I think that part of your, what I'm saying about taking the care, the time is really to as you're doing this, as you're getting these panels, where you're getting somebody's look at just those four of inflammation, of toxicity, infection or whatever it was.  I had another one on there.

Kevin: It's deficiencies.

Dean: Deficiencies.

Kevin: Inflammation.

Dean: Okay, yeah so yeah nutrients, nutrients levels, right that those things if somebody looked, if you were to take those numbers and even my frustration with getting lab reports from the doctor is typically they're all on the lab things, they give you back the things, they share the numbers. He's circled and checked and done. He's explaining, “Well, this looks good, your blood pressure is good, your A1c is coming down that's good,” all these things, but if you were to create a report or a narrative that goes around these things that you're educating somebody about the things, so that they know that there's a where they are on the progression. If they're saying that as far as inflammation, this is a big key, these markers are showing that you have inflammation. Now, these you can affect those by this, this and this. These are the things that we're going to focus on with that. We can expect to bring that down to this range. Now, we're putting a scorecard on something and targets on something that feels like it's just this blob that's surrounding them, this cloud that's around them.

Kevin: I think you know.

Dean: Then that I think gives hope.

Kevin: Yeah, you hit on a good point. That's exactly what I was going to say is that the one thing that I learned from what our images do in our clinic with is that it brings compliance up and stigma down because people now see that it's not in their head and that they're actually sick and it's a biological problem.

Dean: That's the thing. It's not just, “Okay, Margaret, we got to get your eating better, not so much on the cookies.”

Kevin: You're right.

Dean: Right, I mean really that’s it.

Kevin: Yeah, no, no, yeah.

Dean: It's a judgment and shame thing, very vague. We’ve got to get you eating better, but if you're showing like when you link the diet stuff to these foods cause inflammation, this is what's getting your number up there. These foods do not, these foods actually calm inflammation.

Kevin: Yeah, the other thing that you brought up too that's I think overstated is just people, they're just hit so much with diet that they kind of just blow it off and think the advice is just general advice. As you've mentioned, if you can actually show them some numbers and they change those numbers according to what you're actually using to make the change to get the information and show that to them, then it's empowering.

Dean: Yes and that's the thing because otherwise, it's also and I think that the general thing of diet and we got to eat better is also on a deeper level probably for the doctors as an external blame mechanism that it gives them an escape valve that they're saying, “Well, it's their diet.”

Kevin: Yeah and then, they tell them, “Yeah, well go ahead and just eat better and exercise.”

Dean: Right.

Kevin: I think, yeah.

Dean: Exactly are you eating better, are you exercising? Quantifying it, like getting somebody has a step counter, a Fitbit with the steps that they're living. That they're getting a thousand steps a day and knowing that in order to get that up there, what would be a difference if you get to 5,000 or 7,000 steps a day?

Kevin: Right.

Dean: Yeah, I think you got a big thing. I think it's going to be taking the time to really revere what you have and treat it as the leading edge.

Kevin: Yeah, you definitely gave me a lot of things, really just turned it on its head and gave me a lot to think about to creating an actual viable testing protocol. First is taken in step by step through programs and just starting with general advice.

Dean: Yes. What's your recap?

Kevin: Well, I think well I’ll tell you, not such a recap, but I think an insight and it focused on marketing. Even though my focus is to go out there and make a huge impact on all these people that have depression, starting with the locale, whether Chicago and whether it's Oak Brook and focusing on that first makes a lot of sense. I could start there and then, making impact. Then it’ll be once you do that and make that impact, it's going to be easier to go outwards with it because you’ve already made an impact. It was a very big insight. Then also, having this is one of the reasons I put the protocol together was to be able to have the testing to show people that it's not in their head, but actually to put it together in a protocol and work with people, just on a smaller scale to give better results and to actually prove it.

Dean: Yes that's awesome. I just think that's going to make such an impact in the world if it can help people with that. It's huge.

Kevin: Yeah and who knows what you can do it once you have it. I mean this is something obviously that you can go on and educate other practitioners on to get them to employ in their practices and maybe that's the way I impact millions of people-

Dean: That's exactly it. Maybe that’s exactly is that what you've got is this protocol and maybe, it's just the same way like just like Daniels got with the clinics all over the country. You could have that same thing or that it's the protocol is through that you've got other doctors in the top 100 markets in the country that are helping people in their market.

Kevin: Yeah, it's another thing to think about, wow. It's an interesting insight we just had there, at least I did.

Dean: Syndication, yeah. Syndication is a great thing because ultimately somebody is going to need the hands-on and the personal attention.

Kevin: Well, yeah, absolutely. There are a lot of doctors out there in the field [inaudible 01:01:43] would love to do for me. Again, it's focusing on big and trying to make this huge impact, [inaudible 01:01:49] these other people. I will tell you something that not only is it having the protocol, but also having the marketing and it goes along with it because I will tell you I know a lot of practitioners-

Dean: Oh yeah.

Kevin:  And most of them do not understand business marketing, strategy [inaudible 01:02:06]. They suck at it. Maybe this model could be put together with the marketing model and have a whole system for practitioners.

Dean: [That's exactly right.

Kevin: All right Dean.

Dean: Lots to think about, good.

Kevin: Yes, this has been great. I appreciate your time and your insights, your expertise. It's wonderful.

Dean: Thanks Kevin. I will talk to you soon.

Kevin: All right, take care Dean.

Dean: Thanks.

Kevin: Bye.

Dean: There we have it, another great episode. I really love this thought of starting with an n of one study. Whenever you've got something that you can package up that you're going to duplicate that you're going to transfer to other people, it's always about starting with the very best solution to get the result that you want. Then, packaging that, documenting everything that's going to happen and then, do it again right, so that you can see that it works in a duplicatable kind of way. Now, you're ready. Now, you've got what we call that scale ready algorithm that you can take to anywhere that you want. That is a totally transferrable concept that would work for no matter what you're doing, anything you're doing to help other people get a result through your methods.

I think what will be a really good thing for you to do is to get a sense of the eight profit activators here. If you go to BreakThroughDNA.com, you have a whole video there that's a one-hour video that gives you a great overview of all of the eight profit activators and the before unit, during unit and after unit. While you're there, you can download a copy of the Breakthrough DNA book that explains how the eight profit activators are either growing or slowing your business right now. That'll be a good start. Then, if you want to be a guest on the show here, just go to MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com and you can click on the “Be a Guest” link. That will take you right into an area where you can tell me about your business and then, we can get together and work on your marketing. That's it for this week. Have a great time. I'll talk to you next time.