Today on the More Cheese Less Whiskers podcast we're talking with Ross Thiebaud who sells metal roofs that run anywhere from $50,000 to $200,000, and he does almost all of it online.
No salesman in the home. No three-hour kitchen-table wrestling match. A husband and wife watch a video in the comfort of their own home, answer a few questions built right into it, sleep on it, and then get on a 15-minute call where all that's left to talk about is the price.
I love the elegance of it. By the time someone reaches out, they've already sold themselves.
We also talked about the nine-word email, which brings in 25% of Ross's business from people who didn't buy right away. That got me onto one of my favorite ideas lately, RevPUP, or revenue per unconverted prospect. The leads everyone writes off as junk are usually just buyers who aren't ready yet. Check back in 18 months and almost all of them bought a roof.
There's a lot here about patience, premium pricing, and treating your list like a time capsule of the customers you're going to have.
Key Takeaways from This Episode:
Why selling over video beats selling in the room: guard's down, they can rewatch the key parts, and they sell their spouse for you.
The "no pushy salesman required" hook that filters out tire-kickers and pulls the ready buyers forward.
Why making people watch the video before you'll talk price isn't a barrier, it's a qualifier. If they won't watch, they were never going to write the check.
How the nine-word email quietly produces 25% of the business from leads everyone else gave up on.
The RevPUP idea (revenue per unconverted prospect): why "junk leads" are usually just buyers who aren't ready yet.
Why doing the same thing cheaper is the hardest way to make a profit, and doing something different costs more is the easiest.
Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 270
Dean: Mr. Ross Thiebaud Good evening, buddy. Good to see you . Good to see you. How you going? Welcome to More Cheese, Less Whiskers. I love it.
Ross: Thank you for having me.
Dean: Well, I'm excited. This is, this is good to get reunited and, and- Yes, sir. Absolutely ... catch up. I wanna hear all about your new venture. So you've probably, I'm assuming you've seen the podcast.
We're just, we're live now. We go for a full hour, and we just have a conversation and- Absolutely. I love it. Yeah. Let's do it. So ta- how... I was thinking the other day is when did we first meet? 'Cause w- we've known each other for a while now. It was 2000- Trying to remember ...
Ross: and wasn't it, was it COVID? I ca- I think it was during 2019.
Before
Dean: COVID, yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Ross: yeah. And we met there
Dean: at Celebration. That's exactly right. So you came to a Breakthrough Blueprint. I often tell the story of your, y- I hold you guys up as one of the best practitioners of the nine-word email. Oh, yeah. And- It's been a big force for us
I think that's fantastic. So for people who don't know, why don't we do a little introduction for you, just kind of tell people, you know, your journey, w- what you do. I know you were, you had exited. Now you're kind of, back on the saddle here. So I'm- ... excited to s- hear the arc of everything.
Ross: Okay. Yeah, so, back in, 2017 we started, advertising online with YouTube and,Facebook and all that kind of thing. And originally we were... So I, it goes all the way back to,I was in, I was in the alarm business for 10 years as well. I was a national salesperson- Okay ... for ADT's largest, n- dealer.
And there was a company called Protect America. I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but it was started by a guy named Ta- Tad Paterek. It's a great name.
Dean: I mean, th- there's so much, there's so much value in a good name, and we'll talk about your name- Oh, yeah ... too on- once we get going.
But Protect- Yeah ... America just says all the right things.
Ross: And he was doing something, and I was working for,the, like I said, the dealer, the ADT dealer. And, he was doing something extremely unique He was selling alarms over the phone- ... and, shipping them out and walk... And they had these, back in these days they had this thing called downloaders.
So he could, they could remotely program their com- their alarm system from his office. and he invited me in and showed me all around even though he knew I wasn't really competition, I was just really interested in what he was doing.
Yeah.
And, he had a place the size of two basketball gymnasiums, that big.
Wow. One was the phone room, and the other was people downloading and, programming people- Installing, helping
Dean: people get it all set up. Yeah ... and I thought, "
Ross: Wow, that's amazing. what a neat thing to do."
And then, and then fast-forward to the, I can't remember the guy's name that started the Khan Academy.
Dean: Yeah. I, we were talking about that the other day. Yeah. I can't think of his name. S- but anyway the guy's- Yeah ... the guy's a genius,
Ross: you know? But, but- but he said something, I was studying him, and so this is 15, 20 years apart, these two different incidents. But, I was studying him and he said, and he was talking about how he started the Khan Academy was his, nephew was struggling in some kind of mathematics, and he was going over to the house and helping him.
Yeah. But he got busy so he started put- posting YouTube videos for him to, learn on. And what he said, what he noticed was his nephew learned better from the videos than he did in person. He s- surmised that it must be that he's okay going back and back and back till he really gets it versus being embarrassed- Right
and saying, "Well, I get it," but he didn't really get it. So anyway, I put those two things together and I decided we could sell the world's most difficult to sell, which is $100,000 roofs, online over the internet.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: We got busy doing it. We got very successful doing it. hundreds of millions of dollars of this has been sold w- with my company and the companies I've taught how to do it.
Okay. And we advertise online. and you know, I sent you the video. We have a little, for people that wanna do business with us, you know, showing them here is live recordings of people selling 100, $130,000 roofs over the internet, collecting the money down, wiring the money in. Right. Oh, it's all, it's the real deal, and no- Yeah
one really believe it, but, And excited
Dean: about doing it.
Ross: Ye- yes. That was the
Dean: great big is the people saying- Yeah ... you know, like- Yeah ... "Done." Well, here's the secret, Dean. "Hey, we
Ross: just bought a roof."
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: Here's the secret is that what I learned was, and what I was hoping was gonna happen, was, The husband and wife watch the video in the comfort of their own home.
They're not, their s- their guard is not up at all 'cause it's a video. Yeah.
It's not a person sitting across the table. By the way, I started out in-home sales, and you're in these people's houses for two to three hours- Right. ... to get the twisting. I mean, it's a mental, physical, spiritual wrestling match in there, you know what I mean?
To get that thing done. 'Cause, you know, 'cause, you know, you're talking about I go back to door knocking. You knock on these people door and- Yeah ... you walk out three hou- hours later with a $50,000 check, you know, for half the money down. It's not easy to do. And it's, you would think it's even more difficult to do it online, but it's not.
It's actually easier because we, the video sells them and then,the guy that does all my videos, I'm actually partners with him now in what we're doing right now, but, he's the master of testimonials. And our testimonials, what people don't realize, d- are sprinkled through the video-
that sell all of our marketing points 'cause it has worked for them and they're talking about how great it was, how much it lowered their energy bill, how much it lowered their insurance premium. How beautiful it is and all these different things, you know what I mean?
The customer is sitting there with their husband...
The way the system works is the husband and wife sit down in the comfort of their own home- ... watch the video, talk about it, say, "You know, if this thing's affordable, we want one of these things." They sleep on it.
Oh. 'Cause we don't
pitch them right away. We, won't pitch them for at least 24 hours till they watch the video.
Then
they get on the phone, they get on the phone, and you saw the video. The, here's the price. Okay, I'll take it. You know? It doesn't happen every time, but it happens a lot of times, so it's been really successful.
Dean: But, you know, part of... As I was thinking about that, like, with the video, there's something about it that you said that I think is right.
When people are watching a video, they let their guard down. They're slightly down. They're not thinking about how I need to refute or rebut or- Yeah ... object or keep this person at arm's length. Exactly. And they can double check, is that, what did he say?" And go back and say that, and the fact that you've said something on video adds to, well, there's a credibility element, too, that- It is
you're not just saying this- Yeah ... because there it is in black and white, you know?
Ross: Yeah. So you said something, it's really funny that, it, as, you know, you know, w- we were spending a lot of money on marketing, so I, we were nationwide and I was showing up in people's, you know, on their YouTube streams and all that.
And every now and then I would be the one doing the selling, and it was like- ... "Whoa, the guy on the video," you know, like I'm some- ... celebrity or something like that, you know? You're famous. yeah. So it does add a lot of, just being on there adds a lot of, like you said, trust and credibility.
Yeah.
it's really an amazing system. It worked really good and, we've helped a lot of people, develop it in their own business and it's, it really is the, you know, the secret is, like you just said, is when it's in the v- And by the way, another thing we've always been, you know, we've been tweaking the video and the system all constantly.
You've gotta be tweaking it all the time.
Yeah.
But, one of the things that we've done is, of course, you know, we integrate the questions within the, video- Yeah,
Dean: I was impressed with that. Yeah. In the video. So they're,
Ross: yeah, so they're answering the questions so they're engaged so they c- And w- I've been using video to sell even in the home.
Because what I would do is we'd have it on iPads. And what I would do is if I got stuck or I wasn't sure what to say or, you know, how to respond yet, I would say, "Well, hang on a second. Let me show..." And I could play the video, and the video would be like, I don't know if you ever pitched in homes when you had...
There's two of you and you kind of tossed it back and forth to each other, double teaming the customer, so to speak.
Yeah. So I could double
team with a video and I could wait a minute and think, "You know, how do I wanna respond to this?" And then click the video off and- Yeah ... and respond to them. And I also realized that you can't just go into somebody's home and click video.
Yeah. They'll go to sleep on you. They've gotta be involved in about- Oh, yeah ... 30 to 60 seconds. They've gotta be involved in s- You gotta stop, ask them a question, tell them what he just said. Yeah. You know, edit. It's like, Yeah ...
Dean: I remember, so back, you know, pre-internet when I was doing real estate going into people's homes- we'd have a binder with the visuals that are all, all- yes ... you're talking about something and you flip open the, "Let me show you this," and, Exactly. Yeah ... you got a infographic or a chart- Right. ... or a testimonial, a person. Like, "You know what? That reminds me of this person and look- Yeah, yes
this is what we were able to do here." Yeah. so those visual things help people really anchor to an idea. One of the things that really stood out in the video, that you showed was how the girl was explaining the thermal properties of the styrofoam. Yeah. She was showing the thermal- Yeah.
Like, not her video, but a video showing- Yeah ... the thermal effect of styrofoam on pouring- A cup of coffee ... hot coffee. yeah. So that it's 100- Everybody could relate to it ... degrees in the cup. Yeah. But it's the ambient temperature on- Exactly ... the outside of the cup. Right. And so people see that and they understand, oh- They-
if the sun is coming and it's the, styrofoam is insulating- Yeah ... no wonder that's gonna keep the attic
Ross: cooler. Exactly. So yeah, the, what the foam does is almost 100% shuts down the conduction of heat.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: Which is, you know, from touching. So it, you know- Yeah ... styrofoam has little bitty microscopic air pockets in it.
That's all it is- Yeah ... a bunch of air. Yeah. And it's really good. But like you said,just about another thing about using video Is, you know, we've had this long journey of, you know, improving the system all the time.
And,
you know, w-
you ...
originally we didn't even know if somebody watched a video.
You know what I mean? You didn't even know if they watched it. And then we had tracking, then we put the questions inter- integrated into it, and h- so here's the ... You can learn so many things. So, I mean-
...
tell me, guess what happens whenever you're looking at the video and you're seeing the metrics and you see they watched it.
And then you see 30 minutes or an hour later they watch it again. Guess what happened? Guess what happened?
Dean: Yeah. It's a- They were talking about it that whole time, Yeah,
Ross: and the, so the husband and wife watched it, and the moment it got to the husband said, "You gotta see this." Yes. And so they watched it again together.
I got it. yeah. And that's a deal. That's a deal. So are those- Very
Dean: good stuff ... what's the name of the video,service again? That-
Ross: Oh, Mind Stamp.
Dean: Mind Stamp. Yeah. I was trying to think of that the other day. Okay. Mind Stamp. Now, are those... 'Cause I n- I really love the way that the questions are- integrated. So f- for people watching this, you know, imagine that you're watching a video, a segment happens, and then there's an interstitial right in the screen- Yeah ... that just asks a question. So, so
Ross: an example of it is- Yeah ... is that we show the colors, and then we get them to interact. What color?
Yeah. Which color do you like, yeah, or do you want, or whatever, yeah.
Dean: And are, is, so when you're sending an email or text to people with the link to the video- ... is, that is now uniquely, so you know that- We track '
Ross: em. They know it's Dean Jackson- You're tracking who- Yeah,
Dean: because
Ross: of the email address, yeah.
Okay. Perfect. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So I- So we track it like a big time. Yeah. Every time they watch it, we get notified. They just watched it again, or they watched 97% of it or, you know, whatever, yeah.
Dean: Right. Exactly. And then does the video, or do you have the opportunity f- with Mind Stamp for the video, depending on what they said, to serve up the next- Yes.
No, you can have logic ... thing? Yeah.
Ross: There, that's actually in there. Okay. So with our deal, if it's new construction, it goes a whole nother series- Yeah ... of questions.
Yeah.
Versus if it's a, if it's an existing home with- ... w- that we're laying over that roof, you know, then it's- Yeah ... a different series of questions.
Yeah, that's correct. Right. Yeah. I love it. No,
Dean: it's been- So, I mean, what a great tool. Oh ... can I, when you go through, I'm like, I love to see the metrics of how things play out. So if 100 people, you know, click to, Are they opting in to see that, the video? how would they- Yeah.
So
Ross: they opt in off YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn- Yeah ... Direct Mail, you know, wh- whatever they're opting. Yeah. Yeah.
Dean: Okay, so they opt in. So out of 100 people that opt in, what happens to that cohort over- Yeah ... the next- Yeah ... 'cause I know you're pretty focused on the first 10 days basically.
Yeah,
Ross: yeah.
Dean: Right? So- So what happens?
Ross: So the bottom line is that, you know, Facebook is the worst, I mean, as far as junk leads. You know what I mean? So you, if you get 100 leads with Facebook- ... we'll have 40 of those leads typically will set with us.
A-
and our system, we don't, we have what we call a no-setter system that automatically, there's no interaction with these people at all.
the system completely, y- you know, we don't have any humans involved in it. Oh, nice ... they, they, you know, click on To Learn More. They're prompted into the instructional video. And by the way, one of the keys to the video is- We tell them that our customers love our educational based system.
We don't do high pressure and tactics Right. We use education. Yes. And you think about it, and, you know, and if you're e- a- after you've watched the video, if you're interested, in the ro- in the s- interested in the roof, give us a call. If you're not, don't bother us.
Right. I
mean, yeah.
Exactly, yeah. it's real- it really polarizes the customer. And- So,
Dean: so if, I'll track this as we go. So we're talking, did you ever see that show How It's Made? Oh, I love that show. On disc- me too. I love it. So what I'm trying to discover here is I wanna- Okay ... narrate this process- Okay, yeah ... like we're on How It's Made.
okay. So you're saying, we run ads on, on, let's just use Facebook as the example. We run ads on Facebook, we get 100 people to opt in, for- We get 100
Ross: leads. We get 100 leads. Yeah. 40 of them opt in, and out of that 40 we're gonna sell about- Well, 100
Dean: clicks. 100- Yeah, about 100 ... visits to the website.
Yeah. And 40 people, will opt in, leave their name and, email.
Ross: No. I- if we get- Oh ... if we get 100 leads from Facebook- ... a lot of those are garbage, because it's so easy to, you know, generate a lead on Facebook. Yeah.
Dean: I wanna, let- let's put a pin in that because I do wanna, I wanna ask you some questions about that.
Okay. And I'll share with you some of the things that I've found about that. So when, what are you calling a lead then from Facebook? Okay. A
Ross: lead is somebody that, so we, so we do the little deal on Facebook. I'm talking about Facebook, not YouTube now.
Yeah.
On Facebook, when they, you know, they want to learn more- Yeah
we send them, you know, the Facebook sends them a text or some kind of code to verify that it's actually a person and they really do. Yeah. So it's a double opt-in, so to speak-
Yeah, ... to, for
that lead, which strengthens- Yeah ... the lead, but still there are a massive amount of garbage in, with Facebook leads.
Yeah. Okay. That's- just a side note, by the way, so with YouTube, with YouTube it's, w- we're gonna sell YouTube leads almost three to one over Facebook leads
Dean: Well, that's an interesting- Yeah ...
Ross: thought. but they're more expensive and harder to get.
Dean: yeah. Total, I always look at total yield, right?
So if we stick with the Facebook- Facebook and YouTube is our- ... things, how much
Ross: do those leads cost for- they can be as low as 18, $20 and as much as 50, $60 for a Facebook lead. Okay. Yeah.
Dean: Okay. So- ... 20 to $50, we'll call it 30 on average, would be fair?
Ross: with Facebook, it cost us, I think the last time we checked, and it goes up and down, you know, 'cause Facebook is- really trendy. It can go in the tank overnight.
the week after you had your best week, it could go right back into the tank.
Right.
But we spend about 14, $1,500 is our complete cost to make a sale, which is- can be 50,000 up to $200,000.
Yeah.
And that a, you know, typically a 35 to 40% profit margin on these metal roofs.
So- That's awesome ... yeah. It's a really- So if
Dean: we spend, Yeah, so if that's... So if we get 100 of those leads, you said that 40 of them will, you say, will- Really will set with us ... yeah,
Ross: 40 of those will actually set with us and, so we can pitch them.
Dean: Okay. So that means that out of 100, they, that means they've watched the video, and then they reached out to you to schedule a time to talk about-
Ross: yeah
and so to how it's made to go through that like, like you said. Yeah. So, so the first thing is they click on the, you know, they become a lead. Yeah. Then they go through our process, and they have that introductory video that explains to them, we, the, our big thing is get a quote for a metal roof, no pushy salesman required.
Right. We do it all over the phone, over the internet. It's quick, it's easy, and it's free. That's kind of our- Yeah ... you know, tagline thing.
Because we came up with that because we were thinking, "What is gonna differentiate us from everybody else?" Yeah. Anybody, you know, anybody that's ever had a pitch, bought something in an, in a home service product like windows by Renewal by Andersen, which are s- some of the most expensive windows you can get. Leaf guard gutters, all, you know, big-ticket stuff for in home. They know they're in for the f- y- when you sh- when that salesman shows up- ... there's only two ways to get him to leave, buy the thing or call the police. I mean, they ain't leaving until they sell.
Yeah. That's it. It's done, very, a very uncomfortable- Click here to schedule- But I did it ... a visit from a highly trained salesperson. yeah. The, and, 'cause I did it
and, you know, for years, you know, and it's a- it's exhausting. but so we realized that, you know, if what we can do is- ensure them that we're not gonna be in the home. You're in charge. You can hang the phone up if you don't like what we're saying, you know? And, and so it was a really good hook.
You know, get a quote from Metal Roof, no pushy salesmen required, no in-home visit.
So that was the hook. And I got sidetracked there. So but anyway, the bottom line is that once they do opt in, we send them this video that explains to them that we, you know, we don't send pushy salesmen out to the house.
and the pr- preview to the video is o- one of the ladies that works with us, Stephanie, she's explaining to the people- ... you know, how we have a, our system is education-based, not high pressure. Yeah. Yeah. So we set them up to watch the video, and they're at ease. And they pick the colors and the styles and all this kind of stuff, you know what I mean?
And through that video, we have sprinkled in the, we have the best testimonials in the world, like I said Oh, yeah,
Dean: they're great.
Ross: Aren't they great? They're so believable. Yeah. 'Cause our video guy just has the gift,
Dean: you know? Like he doesn't- Of prompting out, exactly ... he doesn't
Ross: put the words in their mouth.
Yeah. Gets them to say what we want them to say. It's, he's super good at it. Yeah. Been working with him for 20 years, you know. But, anyway, so the video, and it sells the deal for them, and you can see it from a mile away. They're getting on and they're saying, you, you can feel the energy, "I hope we can afford this thing."
And that's what they want. So my job and our closers' job is simple. The brief is so, get the money. That's all you gotta do. And, and what those videos that you saw, they've been on the phone with them a maximum of 15 minutes, and they're getting the-
Yeah, so it works
Dean: really well.
Wow, 15 minute Zoom. 15 minutes. That's right. 'Cause all the stuff has already been, a- answered, all of their, they're already- All through the video, and it's all automated. You know, the, you know, the, the- So you do it different. From what I remember, you require that they've watched the video, that the- Don't talk to
Ross: them, they watch the video.
Dean: Right. Yeah.
Ross: We, because if you talk to them-
Dean: And you can confirm that they have because you see the video They answer the
Ross: questions.
Dean: What if, oh, they've answered the questions, yeah. Yeah, so you know, we- What if somebody doesn't? We all what if somebody does this? Say they're not even talking to them.
AI, I'm gonna do this. Right. You just tell them- No ... and what if they, is it, how often are they resistant and then go back and do it and get on versus just
Ross: saying, "Well, I'm-" I'm not sure about that, but it happens. And then when they do, they're, "I'm so glad I watched the video."
Dean: Yeah. And so, yeah.
And that's okay, so you're not worried. This is what I would say to people. Listen, you're not worried about the ones that don't. You're focused on the ones that will. Yeah. And that, that would be- So
Ross: it's like this, yeah, it's like this. You gotta polarize, you know what I mean? you gotta do it my way.
I know the way that I wanna do it. Yeah. And it's like, like I used to tell my salespeople, I was using digital business cards. I had PDFs made, you know, 15, 20 years ago. And I'd have salesmen say, 'cause we had a big door-to-door operation, I'd have salesmen say, "Well, they, you know, I can't get them to give me my phone number to text them the digital business card."
And I would say, "If you can't get them to get your phone number, you're definitely not gonna sell a roof." How are
you gonna get their credit
card? You know, it's like, you know, come on, you know? Yeah. And, and it's the same thing. If I can't get them to watch the video, they're never gonna spend $100,000 on a roof with me or, you know.
Yeah. It's,that's... So we know who are, you know, what works and what doesn't, and we, you know, a- and we do get a, believe it or not, we get a bad review sometime on our, you know, on our Facebook. Someone said, you know, "They wouldn't do anything till I had to, you know, to watch the video, and I just don't have time for that," or whatever.
We'll get an occasional complaint. They
Dean: wouldn't even give me a price. Yeah. Yeah.
Ross: They wouldn't, yeah. Some kind of deal. It's like- So we just answer that on the Facebook. But very, you know, it's not a big deal. It, most people, you know, the buyers, you can see them from a mile away. they're excited to get on there and watch the video.
Oh, wow. Sometimes they'll watch it three or four times
Dean: So when, do people typically watch it right away and then, you know, set up or is... Do you have to go back and- Yeah, it's- How many steps in the first 10 days to, to- Yeah ... encourage them to watch the video? The
Ross: better deals, the better deals will just jump right in the boat right off the bat.
I mean, they- They just go the way they want ... Yeah. And those are the ones like you see on the videos. They're just, it's $150,000 okay, well, how do I get started, you know? They're, they're- really good deals. And then, but we do, you know, our nurture... B- J- just by the way, to compliment you in, you know, on the nine-word email, which is, you know, one of the greatest things ever, is historically 25% of our business, though, you know, going with your model, the, you know, our, you know, the podcast, or I can't remember- Yeah
how you know, and with our consultate, consultation with you, is that 80% of the people buy- you know, within the, first 18 months. Right, 18 months. yeah. Only 15%- So, so all- ...
Dean: in the first 90 days ... Yeah, so
Ross: all the money's- Yeah ... really, yeah, and so the bottom line is 25% of our business historically has all come from the nine-word email.
Dean: Yeah. So that's the bottom line. So that's what I wanted to say about when you put a pin, when I put a pin in that the Facebook leads are garbage, a lot of them- yeah ... is what you said. Yeah. So what I have to, what I've really learned to distinguish- ... is when we say that the leads are no good, is that is a subjective statement- Yeah
based on that they- Now ... they did not buy right now. Right, yeah. Now, and w- what I've discovered is that what's more important is are they objectively good leads, and objectively would mean if we were to check on them 18 months from now, how many of these people bought a roof in that 18-month period? Yeah.
And I guarantee you that it's a higher number than it is in the first 18 days. It's,
Ross: it's almost 100%.
Dean: Yes. Yeah,
Ross: and so- And that's, so there's the real- ... I'm glad you corrected me 'cause, I'm glad you corrected me 'cause I did, I misspoke. You're right. The Facebook, they're not junk. They're just not ready right now.
Dean: but if you look at it that's an advantage, the way I've phrased that- ... here's how I talk about it. I say, "Ross, if I could say to you, 'Listen'" We, I have figured out time travel, and we can go back ... We can leave tonight at midnight, and we can go back two years from right now. We'll still be sitting here at our desks, but it'll be, the clock will be wound back two years.
But before we go, let's go to the city office and let's print off a list of everybody that got roofing permits for the last two years. yeah. So we know every single roof that was- Yeah ... built in the last two years. It's like we
Ross: got the score sheet for the games that we're gonna look at.
Absolutely.
Dean: If we go back- Yeah ... yeah, now we're armed- Yeah ... with this knowledge that these people- Well- ... got roofs.
Ross: You know, in every business, and this is ... In every business, you know, it's about, you know, we made it through this month and we made this much money.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: Or our-
Dean: Expense base ... yeah,
Ross: expense base.
Yeah. And so the bottom line is the, with the nine-word email and those what we call nurture leads- ... next month, those are free.
Dean: Yeah. They, it's free ad- I wanna la- I wanna kinda joke about, you know, those nurture leads. I have a screen cap that I'll often show in my, my lead conversion, workshops, and I show this whole screen of emails from Sonny that- Yeah.
Okay ... I'll often go one after one, once a month, like clockwork, "Hi Dean. Are you still interested in a metal roof?" Exactly that. The exact same email- Yes ... every month for- Yeah ... years.
Ross: Yes. And by the way, like I said, My wife always tells me I, I pick, I gotta find the hardest way to do everything, and,you know-
what could you get more difficult than trying to sell a big-ticket, 100,000, $200,000 metal roof online? You know what I mean? Yeah. And the bottom line is that the nine-word email has made a huge impact on our ability to succeed at that because, it's a big, big-ticket deal and, and- Yeah
metal roofing customers are long-term thinkers because- They do,
Dean: yeah. Yeah. One metric, so since we were w- last really in contact, the ... I've had a lot of like evolution around this, and do you, when you recover or when somebody ... You said 25% basically- ... of the people are as a result of the nine-word email.
And, when you look at that, do you ever go back and see the ad date just to see what the actual, what the actual gestation period is? Yeah,
Ross: we know exactly when we got 'em. Yeah. Yeah. we u- w- our s- our CRM is monday.com, and we have o- so we know exactly when that lead originated, yes.
Dean: Yeah. So- We know when to come
Ross: back to again.
Dean: And what have you found like, if you were to chart them out, how ... What's the longest time that you have somebody that- Oh, it's been- Yeah ... I
Ross: think it's been two, two and a half years. Yeah. a- and so, you know, i- in our business it's like- ... you know, I'm just gonna say $50,000 and- Right ... so you're looking at $20,000 there in profit- that, you know, it took you two years to get it, but that's a ton of money.
Dean: Well, that's what I look at, so I put a whole metric around this, right? Like, so I look at this. I'm gonna share my screen here, and I'll share a couple of things with you because this is fascinating to me. I did this for my own business, right?
Just this is straight from my remarkable. At the end of the year, I went last year and saw- Everybody that bought in 2025- ... one of what we call our Dean brand products. So they came to a breakthrough blueprint like you did in Orlando, or they- Right ... bought a consulting card, or they did a live Zoom workshop, with us.
So of those people, there were 128 people that bought for the first time in, in, 2025. Then I went back and I looked at the, date that they came into my list. So we run ads for our Convert More Leads book is how, our number one way of generating people, onto the list. And I just tracked out of the 128, what year did they opt in.
And if you look here, like of the 128, only 17 of them had opted in 2025. 30 of them opted in 2024, and 21 in 2023. Every single year all the way back to 10 plus years. Yes. So the yield, the metric that we, that I've created that is the, kind of the best insight, the most valuable equity value insight is what we call RevPUP, which is revenue per unconverted prospect.
Okay. And so the, to get that number, we take the total amount of revenue n- from new buyers, and then we divide it by the number of people on the list, the number of people that are swimming in your prospect pond. And we got a, we get, you know, for 2025 our revenue per unconverted prospect was $65.
Now that, you know, when you look at that, that, that number, that's, that number is every year, and when you consider that I add people on to this list for three or $4- that the ROI on that over the yield on it- Is shining ... sometimes up to 10 years later- Yeah ... is a thing. And the reason I f- came up with that metric was to counter the kind of expense-based approach of only measuring ROAS.
Or people look at, "We spent this much money on ads." Yeah. "We closed this many this month." Yeah. "We have a ROAS of this." Or maybe they look at it over the year and they say, "We spent this much this year, and we made this much." But that doesn't account for that you probably had a higher conversion on the leads from the class of January than you did on the class of December.
Ross: yes.
Dean: Yeah. And it doesn't at all attribute any value to the ones that came in the year before, right? No,
Ross: 100%. You're 100% right on the money there. Yeah. The thing about it's especially true with the roofing, metal roofing business because like I said, these people are long-term thinkers. And, you know, bottom line is that you can look at it like this. y- you, you probably even know, Harvey Mackay from- Yeah, sure. Okay. Yeah. You know, I read his book a long time ago and he did it, and I... One of the things I learned from him, which is, I'll circle back around to what you're talking about, is, I'm agreeing with it, is that, you know, he actually targeted certain companies that he wanted- to get influence from. He had targets. Yeah. He didn't just randomly knock doors. He knew- Right ... who he was going after. Yeah. Well, then all these leads that you have that don't convert immediately are become targets. We know they're interested, so it's the best mailing list, it's the best- Yes ... door-knocking list, the best calling.
That's it. And of course, the email. So it's a target. We know. And just think about yourself. You know me, I, you know, is I might be on Facebook, just for example, a week or two ago, I, we wanna get a new door, and I went ahead and punched the button and they started calling me, like, but I wasn't ready to talk.
Yeah, you know what I mean? But we do want it. Right. And so when the time is right, I'm gonna call them. You know, 'cause I was busy, you know what I mean? Yeah. I didn't feel like it was Sunday, and I didn't feel like talking to anybody at the time. yeah. But I definitely, we're going to get a new front door.
Does that make sense? yeah. And it, it may be a year from now, but, you know, I've got them in there in the deal, and if they continue to, if they knew about the nine-word email- Eventually, like, as you know, one day it's, We'll come back around.
Dean: Yeah. And you get what
Ross: you call the love letter. Yes.
They get the love letter, you know, and the, all these details, and it's like, "This is a deal." So it's tremendous. Yeah.
Dean: And over that time, now they know you, and they're seeing all the evidence of other people- Yeah ... all around them that, yeah, and you're gonna, you know. You know,
Ross: I'm a huge Dan Kennedy fan.
I go all the way back to when he was touring the Success Tours, you know, and so- Yeah. Right ... one of the things that he talks about is you have to work short-term, medium-term, long-term all at the same time. Yes. Absolutely. And that's exactly what we're talking about.
Yeah. You know,
long-term leads, they're, like I said, they're, it's basically- gifts from God.
You know what I mean? It is- Right ... gifts, you know what I mean? They're just- Well,
Dean: it's the yield. It's the- You paid for them
Ross: two years ago ...
Dean: it's the compound interest of- Yeah ... what you- Yeah, ... get, right? That's the real- Yeah ... that's the real value of, of that gift. We had, I always do, you know, we did a, measured the first, million dollars of a listing agent case study that we did, and I was pointed this is a great way of measuring something.
So every, these are the months from, you know, September to September over six years of the case study, and these red dots along the bottom represent the cumulative amount of money that he invested in sending postcards and sending newsletters to the people who responded to the postcards. And then these green dots are the cumulative commissions that he earned-
Ross: over that six-year period, a million dollars. And the yellow dots are the trailing dots here, are when they first responded to the-
...
Dean: postcard. So, you know, some of them go all the way back years before they actually listed their house with him, but he stayed in contact with them. And but here's the magic, is that it took, he mailed for five months before he did his first transaction.
Yes. But once he did the first one, he was, you know, self-sustaining. It was free for the rest of the time. So he spent, over the time, $100,000 and made- Yeah, made those commissions ... a million dollars.
Ross: Yeah. So let me, you know, b- because of my business and, you know, studying the nine-word email and all the-
Yeah
I'll, so I'll talk to these people, you know, 'cause I can see when they come in, and these people have a legitimate reason for- Yeah ... bugging out. For example, I had a guy that his wife, had,Alzheimer's- ... and then she got terminal cancer right as he was doing it. So he drops out, you know what I mean?
And two over... This one was over two years later. We keep doing the nine-word email, you know, and this and that. And so over two years later he pops back up and we put his roof on.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: But he had a legitimate re- you know, the, and a lot- Yeah ... of people have, you know, it's not even... Like me, I'm interested, but I'm just not ready.
But things come up- And like you said, like we just said, there's a target on these people because w- you can't get a better list. Like you said, going backwards in time, we know- ... they're interested. They told us. It's just not, they're just not interested
Dean: now. This is what I say to bookend the time travel conversation.
I'd say, you know, since we can't travel backwards in time- ... the next best thing we could do is plant a time capsule of the people who are going to buy a roof in the next- Exactly ... few years. yes. That's the most valuable thing that we could do, you know? And be patient with it. the, it takes a little bit of time to get this up and running- Yeah, you got, you, yeah
for people, like, to fully get the value from it.
Ross: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't happen overnight. Like anything good, it doesn't happen overnight.
Dean: Yeah. You gotta- So how many steps are in the initial, so the lead comes in- So- ... learn more. Yeah. Facebook gives you the, you get the name, email, phone number, and a validated, thing.
Yeah. And so that now they're on the landing page, and you know- Yeah ... who they are.
Ross: Yep. And they, so at that point,
w-
with the minimum amount of steps, if they follow the deal, they watch the video. Yeah. They book the cal- through calendar, they book a, a appointment with me. And I,me or, you know, a salesperson is, it sets their calendar, and they're there to pitch them.
Now, what you can do And what I do if I'm, if I'm s- because I still sell roofs, you know, even though I've sold- Yeah ... I started up again, you know, and it's a really small operation. But, I have a, you know, a setter that just calls and ver- makes sure it's somebody I wanna talk to.
In
other words, if they're,if they're not ready to do anything for, if they're not gonna do anything for a year- or they ju- they haven't even bought the house yet, which happens, you know, they're looking, you know, I, we hold them back- Okay ... because it just doesn't work because it has to be so much emotion and stuff involved. You know, they have to- Yeah ... first watch the video. It's, so we hold them back, but I have a setter confirm everything and then verify they are gonna be there, e- either tomorrow or later that day.
And then we go, we have a really neat, sales page that we go through,that we build the quote together with them as we're going through. Do you want this? Oh. Do you want this? Do you want this? So they're saying yes all through the 15- ... minute process. And then, and then- You
Dean: build a bear, yeah,
Ross: exactly.
And everything's scripted exactly what to say, Yeah ... and how to do it. It just works like clockwork. Yeah. And then, and then, in addition to that, you know, there's are things in there that are built in that instead of lowering the price- ... you can either pull those out- ... to drop the price so you're not- not dropping, you're giving them less. Like they could have the foam backer, we could take the foam backer away. We could take the lifetime labor warranty away. Or, you know, we can choose to give labor warranty away because it's air, you know, it's not really- ... a product to get the deal today.
Dean: Right.
Ross: You know, so we can use some, a little bit of pushy persuasion throughout the deal. but so we have, we let them build the quote, we build the quote right in front of them with them. They're seeing it done. Yeah. And when it gets down to it- We have those options that we can pull out that drops, lowers the price, or, you know, they could choose to- So what if
Dean: they, what if they, they get the thing, they watch the video, but they don't schedule?
what happens then? What does that- Yeah,
Ross: we, the nine-word email, and we do- That's it ... we take it by the roots So there's
Dean: not like a se- there's not a follow-up, there's not a series of messages. It's- No,
Ross: it's just the, you know, and the thing about it is nothing- ... you know, and I'm here to testify for your nine-word, nothing works better than that one.
It's very s- it's really is really simple. Are you still interested? That's it. It doesn't get any better than that, so why change it? That's, that, yeah, 'cause you've been getting 'em for years, right? Right. It works. Yeah, exactly.
Dean: Yeah. Yeah. Why mess with it 'cause it works. Oh, that's fantastic. I love that.
So when you look at it, so out of the 40 that, that will, sit with you, what kind of conversions happen
Ross: from- 10 to 15%. 10 to 15. Now, we could go up, but it's a very big- Yeah ... ticket, you know, and so I could mess my margins up by dropping the price down. You know, we could get up as much as high as 30, 40% in sales.
But it's up- The price is- ... from- Yeah, at what
Dean: cost, right? Yeah,
Ross: at what cost do you wanna do that, so. Yeah.
Dean: And now in your new iteration here, so you built up a company and you sold it. that you were actually doing everything with the roofs. Yeah. what's your... So now is it just doing the selling and- do you sell those installs to somebody else or do you have your own install- We have, we
Ross: have just, it's really s- what it is just a s- I like it because it's just a sandbox.
It keeps me sharp. Yeah. And the system is always needs to be tweaked constantly. Of course,
yeah. Yeah, and
so the little bitty changes, it keeps me up and then I help other people, ... develop their system. And by the way, I have a big background in the alarm business where, you know, I help people with alarms, but any kind of door-to-door home services sales-
I understand that completely. And so it's not just the roofing business. We can help people with- ... this system. It can be- ... a- and to be honest with you, the alarms is like,much easier to deal with than someone, you know, we're in there nose to nose, toe to toe with mom and dad and the family checkbook.
Cutting a check for $50,000 is not an easy thing to get somebody to do. You know what I mean? it's simple.
Dean: There's, there is an elegant simplicity to it too, though, in that- Yeah ... it's something, it's contained. There's not a lot of variation in it once you, get down to the thing, like you do- Yeah
the satellite, the measuring, so you know- Yeah ... all of the data, this is what we need. Yeah. You actually install it right over top of the existing roof- Yep ... so it's a relatively simple,
Ross: s- And by the way, and by the way, if they want us to tear it off, we don't do the roof. Right. I don't mess with that. I'm not gonna mess with it.
Right. I'm not gonna do it. Perfect.
Dean: So- Yeah. Yeah, so o- right over top. Yeah. Then it seems like there's not a lot of moving parts in terms of what color do you want, what style- So you have four colors, that's it. You have four colors. Four colors. Two shing- two shingle size, right? Or shake style or the hurricane, ones.
and by
Ross: the way, that's another thing that I- I actually, designed the pro shingle, the, one of the shingles that we have- ... and I went in with the manufacturer 50/50 to buy the machine, and I wanted because I wanted to sell against myself. So you got the standard or the pro. Yeah. So if the question is not do you wanna go with me, it's do you want the standard or the pro?
Dean: That
Ross: make sense? So I, I do, you know- Yeah, of course ... and then in addition to that- And so that,
Dean: that's what I meant about, so the what color do you want, what style do you want the foam backing, do you want the lifetime warranty? Exa- That's really it ... that's
Ross: it.
Dean: Yeah. Here's what the price is.
Yep. We can be there on Tuesday.
Ross: Exactly. I
Dean: mean, that's really- Yeah ... it's so simple and elegant-
Ross: yeah ... in its
Dean: way, right? N- not like- Yeah ... there's not a lot of decisions like if you were selling a remodel to somebody where- Oh, my God, yeah ... you're gonna redo their kitchen. Yeah. What kind of cabinets, and where do you want- Oh
the island, and what kind of countertop, and what kind of hardware, and do you want this to be over here? And I mean, there's lots of- Yeah ... little, things, right? So
Ross: I go, I've been in the, I go, I was an installer back in 1979- ... in the metal roofing business, and my father-in-law owned one of the larger metal roofing companies in the country- at the time. And he also was a distributor, and it's what I would y- and so I helped build his dis- distribution business, and we'd bring dealers in, and we'd grow dealers to buy ma- shing- shingles from him. And what I'd sit down, and most of them are in the asphalt roofing business, and what I'd tell them, I'd s- I would say, "The easiest way to get into business is do the same thing everybody else is doing, and do it cheaper."
Okay? But I said that's the hardest way to make a profit. Right. Now, the hardest way to get in the business is doing something different than everybody else is doing. Oh. Do it differently, and be very expensive at it. Yes. But it's the easiest way to make profit. Right. Because all you gotta do is figure out how to sell the stuff.
You know what I mean?
Dean: Do you know anything about, do you know who Richard Mille is?
Ross: No,
Dean: I don't. Richard Mille sells watches, and their, you know, average price for a watch is $185,000. Oh,
Ross: wow.
Dean: And his, this is a fascinating story because the guy, when he started the watch company, was 52 years old. He'd been in the watch business his whole, life, but he wanted to build the best watch.
Wow. And his approach was, let's build the best watch possible, and then we'll figure out what it needs to cost. Yeah. So he went to the engineers and the, it's all Swiss, things, all engineered- Yeah ... and to the highest standards, and durable. Like, so there, it's the watch that Rafael Nadal wears, and Bubba Watson wears- Yeah
and Lewis Hamilton and all the Formula 1- Put it beyond
Ross: the Rolex.
Dean: yeah. So what he said was what caught, that it wasn't intentional, but it was just from a thing of let's build the very best watch. yeah. What they found To their delight that they were literally alone in the market. Yeah. That there were lots of 30 to $50,000 watches.
And there were other million-dollar watches that were like museum pieces that you couldn't- Yeah ... wear or whatever. yeah. But 185,000, they kind of were alone in the market. Yes. And they underestimated the size of the market. But he said, on reflection, "If you have a $20 million yacht, of course you're gonna have 185,000 watch."
Y-
Ross: yeah, exactly right. And if you've
Dean: got a garage full of five super cars, of course you're gonna have another super car on your wrist that you can wear- Right ... while you're driving your other super car. Right. And, you know, they sell a billion dollars a year of these watches. Yeah. I mean ... and,
Ross: and the, even if the margins are the same, the dol- the dollar amount is so high you make so much more- Yeah
per watch. That's exactly right. And that's wh- that's what I tell these guys. You're, you know, you're running around doing four or five jobs, you know, have to pick up the final checks on all the leaks that are possible, versus what- Yeah ... you can make the same amount off one metal roof, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Dean: So
Ross: you just gotta figure out how, you gotta learn how to sell the darn thing.
Dean: I, I love that. So, do you guys, do you do the installation or do you contract with- Oh, yeah, we, yeah, we have- You sell it ...
Ross: crews and crews that do
Dean: installation. You do have crews. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is, like, such a clean, elegant business.
Yeah. Do y- you and I had talked about what I see as one of the big opportunities for it is the roof multiplier index- ... of looking at that, how much, how many roofs does one roof turn into? Yes. And they've- Are you doing anything that way? Like- yeah, we
Ross: close a roof, we round them with postcards, and we use- Oh
y- your ref- referred postcard company. I can't remember the name of it because I don't usually- Prospects
Dean: Plus. Yeah. yeah.
Ross: We use them, and I can't think of the lady's name, but anyway. but they're really good, and,in the... you're g- you're right on the money all the time. And the bottom line is, if you look at metal roofing, a- anywhere in the country, it's in pockets.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: These pockets because you get- ... one and the neighbors see it, and it just grows like that there. So it's the, it's definitely the multiplier-
...
of, you know, getting more and more, business.
But I remember you- Hardest one to sell is the first one. You know what I mean?
Dean: I remember you showing me a video of after the hurricane in, New Orleans of- Yeah ... this metal roof shining, you know, just blessed beauty. Yeah. It's, right off the- And surrounded by houses where the roofs are completely gone.
You know, and it- I imagine that the ones that got built back up, that many of them were, convinced to do that too.
Ross: Yes, and it makes it... You know, and when that happens, it makes it so easy because- you know, they've decided, "We're not going to, evacuate anymore." you know, "We're not gonna depend on the insurance this, that, and the other."
Right. "We're gonna get this roof. I don't care what it costs, and we're not gonna have to mess with it anymore." Yeah. So it's, yeah, really good.
Dean: And h- how do you... Do you do anything to orchestrate referrals in the after unit?
Ross: No, we're pretty weak on that. Okay.
Dean: But, 'Cause I imagine that could be a really great, source for you because the people who do it, it's certainly gonna be a status
Ross: thing-
Dean: ... that they're going, they're gonna feel good that- ... they made a premium purchase.
Ross: Oh, they, yeah. But it was a
Dean: smart decision. Yeah. So anybody who's going about making a roofing decision, they're gonna be very vocal about that. And- Right ... especially in the first 30, 60, 90 days after the roof is on, it's all they're gonna be talking about.
Right. That- I need, we need to get better at that ... 30 days later- their first electric bill comes, and instead of $300, it was $185, or- Exactly ... they're gonna be, "Wow, this is
Ross: like-" You know, it's funny you say that. I just, we just got a referral, review in for Google that the guy was saying that, 'cause we tell them that it will lower the insurance, and it lowered his homeowners insurance 800 bucks a year.
Dean: He
Ross: was just thrilled.
Dean: So it,
Ross: yeah. So it lowered- Oh,
Dean: yeah, because they don't need to be... That, yeah, so all of the things of the wisdom, you know? I loved when you were sharing with me the, th- that if you're gonna actually properly make a decision accounting for it, if you're gonna compare it to getting a shingle roof, you've got to add in the price of the second shingle roof- Right.
... in 15 years, because that's-
Ross: Yeah, and by the way, that's an- that's another video that we, that we- Yeah ... th- a kicker video that people can watch is the question's not do you wanna spend the money.
Dean: Yeah.
Ross: You're gonna spend the money either way. You're
Dean: gonna spend it,
Ross: right. The question is 20 years from now, you want your beautiful metal roof and, all your money back through lower insurance or not having to replace it, or no money, no roof.
It's pretty simple. And, we have peop- some, some of our guys w- still go to people's homes, and they'll just pop that video on the counter and let them watch it while they're doing some measurements or checking some stuff out, and it sells the, sells roofs for them that way,
Dean: too I love it. So w- what's your summary here?
what do you, what's the message you wanna get out here?
Ross: well, number one is the nine-word email works big time. Right. Right. And second thing is that, you know, learn to sell through video. You know, once, once you've got that, it's an asset, and it's so much better than somebody being in person because- all the resistance is down. They're sitting there. They, you know, n- all this think about it stuff is out the window-
Yeah ...
because, you know, number one, like you s- like I said, they can check with their insurance company, see if it- ... whether it's gonna save them before they ever talk to me, so it's verifying all, verifying everything and, you know, it's not, you
I do have peop- you know, don't get me wrong, you have to close. You know, there are times- ... well, very, m- majority of the time you gotta close stuff.
You know,
it's all, think about it, I said, "Well, you know, Dean, you know, what is there for you to think about? You guys have already watched the video.
I know y'all have already talked about it," so, and, you know, it, so it's not an excuse anymore to think about it. We've already thought about it. We've already, you know, we've already slept on it. All that stuff's already been done, so it's done- Yeah ... in advance of. They've already been sold. it's almost like you go in and do an in-home presentation and said, "I'll be back tomorrow, you know, to get the money," you know?
Yeah.
So, and that's how it works, so, i- it's just a tremendous sales tool.
Dean: Yeah. Yeah, that's really what it is. It's like doing a two-step. Yeah. It's like you do the full presentation, it goes great, and you say, "Go ahead and sleep on it. I'll be back tomorrow. we'll finalize it or I'll answer any final questions that you have."
And
Ross: what they're sleeping on, what they're sleeping on is they s- they, what's it gonna cost? Yeah. Sleep on it, decide if you want it, i- if at any price. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then we'll talk about the price tomorrow. Yeah. So all the objections are already out the window when it's time.
Yeah. You know what I mean? So.
Dean: I love it. So what is,what are we gonna find at roofingbids.com?
Ross: Well, we, we generate leads as well for people. Okay. If somebody wants to get in touch with me, just ross@, ross@roofingbids.com. Perfect. I love it. Ross@roofingbids.com. Email me- Yeah ... and we can help them out.
Dean: I love it. Ross, it's been amazing to reconnect here. I've- Really great to see you ... always admired everything you've done. I think you, you-
Ross: Well, we admire you and we're bragging on you and spreading your name all, everywhere, wherever we're talking. You made a big difference for us. Absolutely. So if anybody wants to, you know, improve their business, get Dean to, the consulting is, i- it's not a cost, it's a necessity because it's- That's great
we made so much money off what Dean's taught us. I love it.
Dean: Awesome.
Ross: Thank you, sir. Well, thank
Dean: you so much, man. It's great to, great to connect.
Ross: Good to talk to you, too. Thanks, Dean.
Dean: Yep. Have a good one now.