Ep091: Paul Bowman

Today on the More Cheese, Less Whiskers podcast, we're talking with Paul Bowman, who lives not far from me, right here in Winter Haven. We actually kind of serendipitously met at our local Starbucks and struck up a conversation.

He runs some fitness boot camp’s here in Winter Haven. We talked about what he was doing to fill his boot camps and he laughed when I asked if he was on the ‘transformation crack’.

I wanted to help him break the habit, so we jumped on today’s call.

He's been working on some alternatives over the last few months and we got a chance today to talk about the most compelling, easiest way for him to fill out his roster. He's got space for 150 recurring members in his facility and he's at 83 right now. We talked about the fastest possible way, with the least friction to fill up those remaining 70 spots.

You're going to like the conversation and what it led to.


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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 091

Dean: How are you, Paul Bowman?

Paul: Excellent, yourself?

Dean: I'm good. How are things on the sunny side of Winter Haven?

Paul: Are you not on the sunny side of Winter Haven?

Dean: I am. Where are you?

Paul: I'm actually in Lake Ashton.

Dean: Okay, perfect, there you go. It's funny to be right down the street from ... Normally ... I just talked to somebody in Williamsburg, Virginia, and here we are in Winter Haven.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Let's catch up, so I met you at Starbucks, just serendipitously one day. That was-

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Way back in-

Paul: September.

Dean: September, right? Yeah, yeah. Labor Day, that's what you said. Labor Day, yeah. What's been going on since then? Maybe set the stage-

Paul: Sure. About two minutes after meeting me back then, you said just knowing what I did, No Excuses Ladies Bootcamp, you said: Are you on the transformation challenge crack? You hit it right on the head.

Yeah, so I've been doing Bootcamp for four years but seriously full-time for two years, and started off definitely deciding, hey, which one of these challenges works the best? Eight week challenge works? Okay, I'm going to keep doing this until it doesn't work anymore, and it really worked.

It hit it out of the park for about a year, right up to the end of last year, and now that's definitely getting tired, as well as Facebook and things are changing, so I'm now experimenting with different offers, but I'd love to hear what your ideas are in getting off the challenge crack, and gift card was one of those things you talked about.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Have you been able to do any experimenting with that? I mean, it's funny, I haven't ran into you or seen you at Starbucks since then, it's kind of funny that ... Yeah, we haven't run into each other.

Paul: I've been there every Saturday morning from 10:00 AM to noon for a couple of months-

Dean: Oh, from 10 to noon, you get there. Oh, yeah, okay. You're there by the time I've already left. That's what it is.

Paul: Yeah. Actually, I find it interesting that I've been working with somebody, a marketer from another company, which I won't say on here, but so we've been doing marketing stuff at Starbucks. Yeah-

Dean: Oh, that's so funny, I love it. That's great, I love it. Tell me then what...

Yeah, I mentioned to you one of the things that happens, that I see with a lot of the fitness guys that I work with, is that they do get on this, I call it that transformation program crack, because it's run the promotion, get somebody in, they pay up front, they do the eight week transformation, or six week transformation or whatever it is.

Then they have to constantly do that again, and you get addicted to the surge of cash that comes in, but it's not fundamentally building the long-term sustainable thing that you're looking for.

I think I mentioned to you that one of the things that is a better health measurement of fitness bootcamp business like that, is the recurring ... The EFT number. The number of people that you have who are on ongoing.

Paul: Yeah, and we do do ... I mean, bootcamp is definitely ongoing, and we were using the eight week challenge a lot too, as a front end offer, but I definitely need to play with that because I was definitely getting used to the ...

Actually, I just handed off my Facebook stuff to somebody and knowing that we were heading in that way, but still, when I'm used to doing a big launch like that and getting people in the door, and then I looked at his stuff and I'm like, no matter how good your ads are, you're going to get 10 people in the door.

He's like, the way you were doing it, you're going to wear out your audience and piss of Facebook.  So we need to change things.

Dean: Yeah, because you're in a situation where Winter Haven's not that big an area, especially when you look at where you're located in Winter Haven, is to one half of it, so you're in another geographic limitation in a way. Not in a way, but I mean-

Paul: Yeah. Yep, I'm looking at an audience of about 40,000 people, and so yes, the way we were doing it, they were definitely going to get, click, I don't want to see this ... Many of them are going to click, I don't want to see this anymore, even if it was-

Dean: That's exactly right. Yeah, and so I think that part of that is that when you look at it, what would be the number that would be your happy number, if we could just say, if I could get to 250 people on EFT, that are just recurring every month, that would be my happy number; what would that number be for your facility and the way you're set up and your capacity kind of thing?

Paul: You talking about acquiring an ongoing student?

Dean: Yeah, well, I'm talking about the number of students, the capacity that you have, because you're definitely in a situation where there's a ceiling on the number of people that you could physically accommodate.

Paul: There's currently 83 people in there, and we could definitely have 150 plus.

Dean: Okay. If we look at it, that we've got the opportunity to have 150 plus people, and how many of the 83 that you currently have right now are in their first iteration of an eight week challenge or-

Paul: Actually, 80 of those are ongoing bootcampers.

Dean: Okay, great.

Paul: Just because we ended the eight week challenge, and we're playing with other offers, so we don't really have ... Like in the past, I would have said we have 50 people starting up-

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: To know, like last year, we would typically have 100 to 140 people, and 40 or 50 of those were the front-end offers, that most of those would go ... 50 people walk in the door, five or 10 stick around.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, 5/10/15 stick around, yeah.

Dean: Okay. Of the 83 that are the long-term, or the 80 that are the long-term ones, how long do people stay? What would be their median tenure with you? If we stacked up the oldest one and been with you for how long, and the newer ones have been with you for-

Paul: I would say easily a year or two, probably closer to two years.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: In telling the Facebook guy that I handed this off to, what's your average, and I said the average is probably seven months, but that seven month person doesn't really exist, it's either they walk in for the front-end and leave in the front-end, or they're pretty much there for good after that. Never for good, but yeah, a year or two.

Dean: That's what we're looking for really, right? Is to see how we can find the people who are going to be those ... That type of group. Okay, so when you look at it now, what is the most effective thing that you have right now for getting a new long-term member? Is the front-end the challenge, and then some number of them convert, or is-

Paul: Yeah, so when-

Dean: Mostly come and do the challenge and then leave?

Paul: Yeah, so typically, when the challenge is going really good for the last year, but like I said, it's getting tired, but when it was rolling good, I would get 100 applicants, 40% of those convert to front-end offers, and then 40% of those would convert to ongoing.

Dean: Okay, so you'd end up with 15 new members on a-

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: From 100 applications, right, got you, and then that's how it grows on there. Okay. I wonder, the really interesting thing is that the ... Just the whole set up of that eight week challenge feels like there's an end to it.

That's the hidden psychology in the set up of it. It's like come on in, you're going to work, do this for eight weeks, and it's going to ... Yeah, I did the eight week challenge, I made it, and-

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Dean: Then they feel a sense of accomplishment, and then they leave, and maybe they come back at some point and do another challenge next year.

Paul: Yeah, so there's definitely people realize, like this is just an introduction to my ongoing health and fitness, but then there is a big component of it, like you said, that they're just signing up and that's all their intention is, to do eight weeks.

Dean: Yes. Got it. Then how much do you charge for an ongoing membership-

Paul: $149. Yeah, $149 a month.

Dean: $149 a month, and that's just month-to-month, as long as you want to stay?

Paul: Correct.

Dean: Okay, no contract, no anything?

Paul: Right.

Dean: Okay, perfect. I like that. How much of your business comes from referrals, from the people who are already the members?

Paul: Not nearly enough.

Dean: Okay.

Paul: I've never been able to consistently run a successful referral program. I'm running one ... Well, I'm attempting to run one right now, but ... It's something I struggle with, because like I said, these people are here for a year or two, and then rant and rave about and everything, but I have not been successful in orchestrating a referral program-

Dean: Right. Okay. Part of it is that ... I talk a lot about that in order for somebody to become part of this, the whole goal is to get people to know you, like you and trust you. Right? That I look at each of those as an independent goal. Yeah, like most of the time, people think about that statement as one thing, right?

Know you, like you, trust you, they read it like that, as opposed to breaking it down to know you, period, like you, period, trust you, period. Each being a progression, so if you look at the 40,000 people that are within the radius that would make sense for you here, that how many of them know that you even exist?

Right? That's really part of it. The idea, if I were looking at it, that I would want to make it super easy for the people who are already my clients to come in or introduce people who can come in and experience it. You know? Like-

Paul: Yeah. Go ahead.

Dean: I was going to say, there's nothing like that, like if somebody were to be able to give somebody a free week, or a free two weeks, or a free month, or whatever you feel comfortable with, that would be in the context of it.

Right now, you have 83 people and you've got room for 150 people, and so you have a perishable asset that is not being used and wasted in that extra 50%, right? That you've got-

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: 70 spots that are not being used. Right?

Paul: In thinking through that, I know it's like those people are definitely ... It's not like they're not telling their friends, or asking their friends; they're telling their friends, they're talking to their friends, but they're currently not able to compel them or convince them, and you're talking about stuff that, okay, how can we help them compel them, yeah.

Dean: Yeah, how could we give them a free...?

If you just think about this for a second, if you gave one of your existing clients a pass to give to somebody for their first month, let's say, because if we're looking for ... The long-term sustainability of this is not about the people who are going to come and leave, right?

Come and do the challenge and then leave, which is the majority of them, 60% do the challenge and then leave, and the 40% are what we're really looking for, because it's like you said, there's no seven month person. It's either they're in or they leave. Right?

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: If you have your yeast cell being the 83, the person that you want, the person who's already there and wants to stay, and you want to duplicate them, that it makes sense to have them introduce somebody who's like them to you.

Paul: Yeah. Out of all those, like you said, two weeks, three weeks, one week, you think ... Would you lean towards the free month?

Dean: I would think like what would be the thing that would be enough to get somebody anchored into it. Like I'm just saying that sometimes, this has been a thing, that what you have, the thing that you have access to, that is an advantage, is you've got access to those extra 70 spots at cost. Right? Your incremental cost of bringing somebody into that is virtually zero.

As a matter of fact, most of it is sunk cost, because you're already paying for your facility, you're already paying for the ... If you're not doing the class, if you're paying other people, or an instructor, or trainer, whoever's doing it, they're already paying that. Your incremental cost of adding somebody in is very, very low, probably zero.

Paul: As soon as I asked the question, I answered and said the same thing you did. Like what's the best timeframe for them to actually get what they're going to get out, so that they will stick around, and yeah, a week or two is too short.

Dean: Right, because that feels like it's a trial. It feels like a set up kind of thing, yeah, because that first week, the worst thing that's happened is that they come and then they get sore or something, and they don't ... Well, no, that was...

Yeah, I don't think that's for me, but if the whole thing is that you are offering somebody that come-on-in, and in the context of somebody staying for two years, to get them to come in by offering them something that doesn't cost you anything, get that started, there's zero friction in that. You know? It's like-

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: I always say this, that sometimes it's less expensive to get somebody the result than it is to convince them to give you money to get the result.

Paul: Thanks for telling me that one more time.

Dean: Right.

Paul: Yeah, you're right.

Dean: In that context, right? Right now it costs you, I don't know what the actual number-

Paul: Yeah, we crunched numbers and I was just thinking about that, we crunched numbers back in September, so I'm paying $100 to acquire somebody for a front-end, so if I ... Yeah.

Dean: It costs you $100 to get somebody to give you $150 for the challenge, right?

Paul: Eight weeks, but still, yeah, so it costs me $100 for somebody to give me $300 for two months, but yeah, but still, still makes much more sense, yeah. Yes, you've compelled me.

Dean: It is compelling that way, right? That there's now it's like-

Paul: I definitely don't just say that, it absolutely makes ... It's more like silly not to. That's how compelling it is, yeah.

Dean: Right. I mean, that's really the funny thing, but it does get down to that. You know?

Paul: Yeah. What about gift card idea for prospects versus referrals? I'm kind of curious-

Dean: Yeah, I think first of all, first of all, what you want to do is that ... Do you think that ... When you start thinking about it, could you get somebody to come in and carry on? Like if somebody went through that 30 days-

Paul: Yeah, definitely. I mean, yes, a good percentage, especially coming from, like you said, the yeast example, so coming ... Friends of those people that are already there for a year and a half, when they're complete strangers, I can keep 40% of them, so I could do at least that and probably much more, when they're coming from ... Already coming from bootcamp referrals.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: I just think that, before you start the paying for them, that it might be an interesting thing to send your existing clients a golden ticket that they can give to their ... Maybe you send them two golden tickets, that they can give to somebody that entitles them to come in for a free month.

Paul: All right. You're sticking with that free month idea for referrals to bootcampers. Anything else about how would you present that to them?

Dean: As a thank you. There's the thing, is that everybody, if they are going to be able to give to somebody, a legitimate $150 value, $149 with no strings attached, it's not 50%, it's not buy one month get one month. It's not when you join, or when you sign a one year contract, it's nothing like that. It's a legitimate one free month, no fine print. You know?

Paul: Sure, yeah. I ask that question just because it seems like a no-brainer, but obviously everything's in the details too, or it could be a no-brainer, or it could be a no-brainer like grand slam, depending on how it's presented, so I'm just curious on specifics on how you would present it, yeah.

Dean: Yep, if you're looking at ... It's the perfect time right now, in that it is just about April, right? Like that would be the kind of thing that you could execute quickly here, you know? It's perfect timing.

It's like everybody wants to start ... There's certain times that are really conducive to getting things on track, and one of them would certainly be getting ready for summer.

Paul: Thoughts on an expiration date on that?

Dean: Well, yeah, no, I don't know that ... Yeah, I don't know that I would have, but you could even have it for April or whatever, but I don't think I would even put an expiration date on it, because I think you would want people to just give it to people whenever they're ready. You know?

Paul: Okay, yeah.

Dean: Yep, whenever they're ready, here's a free month.

Paul: Other things that are like, definitely give an expiration date, but I do question that, so that sounds fine. Sounds good.

Dean: Right. You're going to see that a lot of these things are ... I often run counter to what traditional direct response would say, in a lot of ways.

Paul: Yep. You're a different thinker, and that's a good thing.

Dean: Well, I look at it that what's the objective, right? Like there's a much higher chance that somebody who knows you and likes you is going to give you money to continue on, than somebody who doesn't know you and doesn't like you.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Right? You have a 30 day experience to get somebody enveloped in the environment. I think you could aspire to getting to a place where it's the toughest ticket in town, is to get into your membership.

Paul: I am the, in storytelling, I am the reluctant hero, but I am confident enough to say that those 83 people and many others are like this place should be packed. You should have a waiting list. This is amazing, why don't-

Dean: Right.

Paul: Like anything, it's not only about giving the results and the experience, but it's the marketing.

Dean: Yes, that's exactly right. Now to those people, they already tell people about you, and they probably tell you that, I tell everybody about you, but then there's that obstacle. That people compared to joining a regular gym for $10 bucks a month, or whatever they're going to spend.

Paul: Absolutely.

Dean: Yeah, so you look at that and you start to see, wow, I get it why this whole thing is different. You know?

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: It's certainly worth an experiment, because people are then going to enthusiastically give that to somebody. You know?

Paul: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Especially if you make it a physical golden ticket that they can give to someone, and that becomes a ... People feel really good, that, hey, I can give this to somebody as something that will be suitable to give to somebody as a gift even.

Paul: Yeah, that absolutely will be going to the printer today.

Dean: Yeah. Okay. Now that thing becomes a really great opportunity, and so you start to look at how you just get your clients, your existing clients, to think they're friends. Put the gift of health in their Easter basket. I mean, that's really what it is, if you could do it that quickly. Excuse me.

Paul: Obviously, there's enough things on the calendar, I could do that over and over again, yeah. With that idea-

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Exactly. Then you start looking at what else could we trigger into something like that? Like you can, for instance, I would look, if you've got your geographic area there, that there’s...

I would start looking at some trigger data, like looking for new movers and welcoming them to the neighborhood and offering them a free month, a one month pass, or birthday data, which you can also get.

I would do this as postcards to people, and certainly on Facebook, birthdays, would be a really good audience as well, if you're thinking that this would be the time for ... That this year's going to be the year they get in their best health.

Paul: Right. I'll definitely ask my Facebook about how to do that with Facebook.

Dean: Yeah, you can target upcoming birthday.

Paul: Birthdays, yeah.

Dean: Yep.

Paul: All right. Awesome.

Dean: That's a cool thing, so it really becomes ... The two things of this are really about how do you get this in front of people. How do you give them that as the ... How do you distribute that idea of the free month, but I think you want to look at it...?

If we just did the math on it right now, if you didn't spend any money on it, but you got your clients to refer people, and let say that we could get them to refer, to give out, or get somebody to start, introduce 40 people, just like your ... That's what you end up happening with the challenge-

Paul: The challenge, yeah.

Dean: You have 100 applications, you get 40 people to start and 40% of those to-

Paul: Which I was spending $2500 on.

Dean: Yeah, so now there's the thing, that's what I'm talking about, is even if it only works as well as that, even if you only convert 40% of those, you're still way ahead of the game because it didn't cost you the $2500 to get them there. You know?

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and as I think about the numbers sometimes, yeah, to actually get 40, I was probably spending $4000, yeah.

Dean: Maybe, who knows? Yeah, so when you look at that-

Paul: I know, that was the thing, it's the numbers, yes, yeah, because I was spending average of $100. Yeah, sometimes better, but yeah, that's $100 a person.

Dean: Yep.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Oh, you were spending $100 to get the application, you mean, or-

Paul: No, not the application. $100 per person for-

Dean: Yeah, right. Right, right, right. I think that's something that could be really easy to experiment. That way, your offer then is really about ... You get somebody to the point where you can ease them into the transition, but now it's part of that ...

What you really want are the people who this becomes a way of life for them, and they get the results, and they see what a transformation can happen in those first 30 days, and they're going to feel like they want to stay with it.

Paul: Yeah. Awesome.

Dean: Yeah, I like that idea.

Paul: I think that's one evil scheme down.

Dean: Okay, what else do you got?

Paul: What are the specifics on the gift card idea?

Dean: Well, I think that that gift card, you could do as a ... That could be at, as $150 gift card, or as a ... Which is almost better even than a free month, that if it's a $150 gift card, they get the free month, plus a bottle of water or something, you know? With the extra dollar, yeah.

Paul: Do you see any issue with doing the free month to my existing bootcampers for referrals, and then at the same time, doing a Facebook campaign for $150 gift card?

Dean: Well, I would almost look at it as giving your clients a $150 gift card to give to somebody as-

Paul: Okay.

Dean: That it's like a free month, you know? That you're putting ... That establishes the economic value of it.

Paul: If I said, rather than the free month, if I said, it's all $150 gift card, do you see any issue with saying do that as a referral, give each one of my bootcampers two of those, but then also do a Facebook campaign where newbies-

Dean: I think I showed you ... Yeah, I think I should you the Facebook campaign we were doing for amazing brows and lashes, right? Which is a $100 gift card, which was, and still is, a big hit. We were able to get people to download those for about $1.50 sustainable long-term, and that ... Yeah, that helps.

Paul: What were the specifics of that, because I played with some stuff, and I was not that successful with it, and it probably because it was $50 instead of ... Which you would only pay partial, but I see there's a big difference there.

What were your specifics on that as far as was it a Facebook lead, and then from that, was a thank you page, a download the card, or did you mail it to them-

Dean: Yeah, so we would email them the download of the card, but it was a lead at, yeah, so they just-

Paul: It was a Facebook ad, and then you would email them a digital gift card-

Dean: That's exactly right. I mean, literally just a few weeks ago, we sent out a nine word email, which we do on occasion, periodically, but just sent out a nine word email at the beginning of last month, saying are you still interested in microblading for your eyebrows, and we got all of these responses back, yes, yes, 23 people saying yes.

Then immediately scheduling all of them in for the treatment. It's really that asset of building ... When people download a gift card, the thing about it is that even if they don't redeem it right now, they still get the sense that I may use that later.

I would test that as the $150 gift card versus a free month, or first month free, or 30 day free pass. Just in the wording, the psychology of how that gets presented.

Paul: Sure. Did you use some service, or did they just digitally download an image?

Dean: Yeah, they just digitally downloaded an image that we set up.

Paul: All right. How about staying on the $150 gift card idea, I have 1600 people on an email list, basically mostly all the people that applied for bootcamp over the last couple years, it is pretty low response, and again, I have no one to blame but myself, but how would you best present that to them?

Dean: There's a perfect example, that that might be the kind of thing ... People who have not converted to bootcamp, or not converted to challenge, but inquired about it, is that what you're saying, yeah?

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Dean: They haven't paid you any money at all yet.

Paul: Got you, yeah.

Dean: Yeah, certainly, that's an opportunity, that's low hanging fruit right there.

Paul: Would it be a nine word phrase that you would start with, or would you start with-

Dean: Yeah, I would think, yep, I would say that that is ... That there's an opportunity to send that out to people, and offer them the $150 gift card.

Paul: Yeah. I'm saying like would you just start with a subject saying, get your $150 gift card, or would you start with some other-

Dean: I would think like rather than using the subject line like a headline, I would use it as ... How would you have that conversation if you ran into them at Starbucks, you know? Because you're one person at a time, that's really the most valuable thing about email, is that you get to communicate to an individual.

Paul: Yep.

Dean: In the same inbox that their mom has access to, right? I will say that about open rates and stuff, is your mom has 100% open rate. You know?

Paul: I hope so.

Dean: Yeah, but if you look at the way she's using the subject line, she's using it very differently than a marketer, and so if you say-

Paul: Definitely get your idea, so help me wordsmith that, what would you say to these two-

Dean: I would say-

Paul: These people.

Dean: April bootcamp, may be a good start, right?

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Then it might be you're saying that, what would you say if you saw someone at Starbucks? I might say: 'Hi, Dean', or 'Hi, Paul', and what would you say? I'm starting a new bootcamp on ... A new bootcamp group, or what would it take to just start a ... Even though nothing new is changing about it, right? It's-

Paul: Actually, it actually has. We just re-launched ... The last month, we spent re-launching, because ... Well, I also realized it's not the way to sell to the prospects, but in a nutshell, I told all the bootcampers that are there, like you guys are used to this, because I've been playing with ...

Well, it goes into some other stuff, so I would say my biggest superpower right now is pain relief and mobility from the neurology class that I've been taking for the last year, so really wrapping that into class, so there's much more about improving balance and coordination, and pain relief and mobility and stuff like that, so we just basically spent the last month educating everybody on that.

Yeah, part of that would be ... Yeah, come see what's possible, even if they've been in class before, hey, come see what we're doing.

Dean: That's what the thing is, that's what I would say, is start something new about it. I'm starting a new pain free bootcamp for April.

Paul: Yep.

Dean: Do you call it pain free, or pain freedom, or pain free or something?

Paul: Part of the whole thing is I don't have a good answer. I'm continuing to wordsmith and to figure out how ... It's brain based fitness, neurology based fitness, but that doesn't quite compel, but really, it boils down to pain relief and mobility. Yeah.

Dean: Okay. When you look at that, if you're starting to say that, I would look at creating this word pallet of what are the words we're going to include in this, and so when you've got something new like that, and what it involves, who would be the idea person for that?

What would they be saying about themselves, or what's the conversation that's going on for them that this would be serendipitously the answer for them. You know?

Paul: Yeah, pain relief, anti-aging, and I just shot a video with people where the guest is legitimately feeling years, if not decades, younger because your knees not killing you, your hip's not killing you. Yeah.

Dean: Yeah, pain relief and mobility. That's a good ... Those are good things, and so if we're saying that, and we're going to focus on what would be ... How would you finish on that? We focus on...

Paul: Are you there?

Dean: What we are ... Yep, we focus on that.

Paul: Question or-

Dean: Yeah, I'm asking you, so if we said that we're going to focus on blank, what would you ... We're going to focus on...

Paul: Well, I mean, weight loss is still a huge driver. People are still ego driven first, but then they stick around because of the pain relief, so yeah ... Come see what's new, even better results from weight loss, but added bonus of pain relief and mobility.

Dean: Part of what ... Yeah, when you're looking at it, part of the thing is ... I've had a lot of experience doing case study groups, so you start to think about that, that you could do lots of new ... A pilot program like that. You know?

Paul: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dean: Are you going to document results? What could be the outcomes that people have in 30 days?

Paul: I've definitely had people that thought they were, and not only that, scheduled knee replacements, hip replacements, that are now convinced that they don't need knee replacements and hip replacements.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: Like stuff like that. People that had chronic back pain, and chronic knee pain and hip pain for ... Some were all their life, if not, the last 10/20 years, that no longer have that. Yeah, so that's definitely normal.

Dean: I think when you ... That, just as an aside, that would be the kind of thing that would be a referral orchestration inside, right?

To be able to say, if you hear someone talking about knee pain or knee replacement surgery, or hip, before they go through surgery, give me a call, I'll give you a $150 gift card, or a free month for them to come in, and experience this. May be able to avoid surgery altogether.

Paul: Yeah, and I did ... I actually heard you say that before, and I used it once. Now I need to recycle that, because I said exactly what you said, and it got me at least one or two private clients, so saying that once to bootcamp made me at least probably two or three grand.

Dean: Well, there you go. You're welcome.

Paul: I need to recycle that.

Dean: Yeah, that's right. Not only recycle it, you need to get your whole advocate group repeating it at just the right time, so you're programming them.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: What's that?

Paul: I need to systemize it.

Dean: Yeah, and that's the thing where we use the world's most interesting postcard, is doing that kind of programming, that you're programming them to pay attention to the conversations that are going on. When they hear someone talking about knee pain or shoulder pain or hip pain, that you instruct them what to do. Right?

Give me a call or text me, and I'll give you a free month, or I'll give you a pass, a 30 day pass for them to come and experience it, and/or a copy of my book. Whatever ... That if you've got something that starts that, that's easy for somebody to consume, that it's easy to give somebody a book, and along with the book comes a free $150 gift card, or a pass.

I'm hedging on that, because this'll be a good thing to experiment to see what has more value.

Paul: Because I also do one-on-one pain relief sessions, and I could definitely experiment, like what gets people into those, or either way. What gets them to give me money? The-

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: Free $150 for bootcamp, or the one-on-one session, so I can definitely experiment with that.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: I've definitely heard all your More Cheese podcasts, and I was really intrigued by the last two recent gentlemen that were stem cell guys, but really, more importantly to me, is they're both pain relief guys.

Dean: Right.

Paul: There was a lot of stuff that carried over.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: Question for you, and I can definitely see doing a knee pain relief book, and a shoulder pain relief book, and a hip pain relief book-

Dean: Right.

Paul: As you said, you definitely think differently, so typically, it's put in the book, what to do, not how to do it, but I've heard you talk about your different take on that, but it's not clear in my head right now. Say knee pain relief book, what exactly do I put in that book?

Dean: Well, I think that part of the thing is that you want to show them that there's a promise land. Right?

That there's a better place than where they are right now, so first of all, you need to describe in detail exactly where they are right now, as good or better than they could articulate to you, because you've seen all kinds of different situations, right?

Then you need to demonstrate your expertise, so you demonstrate your expertise by explaining why it's happening; what the root is, and how that's maybe different than what most people think. Most people think that the only solution is surgery, or pain pills, or just management, right? That when you really break down the mechanics of what creates the pain, and you can go in and making this up, because I don't know how you do it-

Paul: Sure.

Dean: That you could go in and through some manipulations or through some building the stability around the joint, or strengthening the muscles, the loosening the fascia, or whatever is going on, from a combination of flexibility-

Paul: Getting in such a ... Getting their brain to put their knee in the right place, getting their brain to put the shoulder in the right place, yeah.

Dean: That's interesting. Oh, yeah, you mentioned that you've been studying Z-Health, Kathy-

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Kathy actually came to Orlando. She was at the Breakthrough Blueprint just before Christmas.

Paul: They work with Dan Sullivan as well-

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: I like working with you, yeah.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it that you're explaining how that all works. You can show the protocol of what you do, like not in specific detail, but in enough detail that it's like this is what it's about, and then tell stories of people who ... The different types of people that this has helped, and then whenever you're ready, here's how I can help you.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: That's all the book needs to be. You know?

Paul: All right. Sounds good.

Dean: The most important thing about using a book for something like that is that you've got the title that is what people want, you've got a way for them to get it, and that you're leading to the next step.

That's really what it's all about, is that the purpose of the book is just to have somebody identify that they have knee pain, or hip pain, or shoulder pain, or whatever kind of pain, and now you know that that person has something you can help them with. The conversation is about helping them get the help they need, and if you've got, especially when you're in a situation where it's a recurring thing, is it just makes so much sense.

It's so frictionless to get somebody to come in and come back, and get in the routine of this, that it would be abrupt or hard to then stop, especially once they start to see the results. You're painting this longer term picture with them, right? Like if the 30 day experience is about painting this long picture.

I saw a modeling of this in the ... I've started a new program for real estate agents, so I have a book called Listing Agent Lifestyle, and a podcast that goes with it, but that whole thing is to introduce people to this idea of living a listing centric approach to ...

A lifestyle based approach to real estate, and the whole thing about it is to start that conversation, and then invite people to gogoagent.com, where I'm building the community of people who are adopting this. Right?

I'm helping them be like our bootcamp type of thing, but all the tools that they need to execute the listing agent lifestyle, and it's a monthly recurring membership, but I offer people 30 day free come-on-in, and there's no credit card required, nothing; that's exactly the way that we do it.

There's no friction in that, and I know that if somebody will give me 30 days, that I can convince them to give us 30 weeks to really get going on something, and if they're there for 30 weeks, they're going to be there for 30 years. That's really the-

Paul: Yeah. If they're doing the program, yeah, they're ... Yeah, you got to a re-occurring community that's going to be there for good.

Dean: Yeah. You're half way there, but okay, let's get back to brainstorming this email that you could send out to invite people.

Paul: Yeah. Yep.

Dean: If you just said to them, if you had April bootcamp as a subject line, and then you said, Hi, Paul, I'm starting a new pain-free bootcamp for April, and we've been experimenting, or earlier this year, we launched a whole pain-free approach to weight loss and mobility, and we've been getting really great results, and I'd love for you to see what it's all about.

I'm starting the new program in April, would you like to join us as my guest? Free for the 30 days. That would be a nice email, you know?

Paul: Yep. Yeah. All right-

Dean: Something just like that...

Paul: That one for inviting them for free, or the email like that, inviting them for free for 30 days, versus the $150 gift card in that one, the-

Dean: Yeah, I think that that might be, for this context, I think that would be how I would do it, yeah.

Paul: That conversation.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: All right.

Dean: Then that then becomes the easy way to get that going. You know?

Paul: All right.

Dean: That's perfect timing, like right after everybody's filled their belly with peeps and chocolate Easter eggs.

Paul: Put down the Cadbury Easter eggs.

Dean: Yeah, after they've given them up for Lent or whatever, yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Now after they've ... After they've gotten everything now to really get on-track here. I just think creating that culture of how your existing clients are going to refer, and it's really interesting, you've got a captive audience every week.

It's almost like if you were to start thinking about that it's market maker Monday, and on every Monday bootcamp, you just start presencing, conversationally, they won't even notice what's going on.

You just say to people, listen, if you hear some of them talking about this, that's really it, give me a call, or text me, or pick up on the way out, there's a free pass or a $150 gift card that you can gift to somebody to get them in here, and let's see, we can try it for a month. That makes it so-

Paul: Yeah, and it plays right into my bootcamp class because we don't play music. The whole class is a conversation.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: It's a conversation about moving right, eating right. It's like healthy psychology, all that stuff, but it plays right into that conversation.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: If you say that, listen, I just finished my new book. My new knee pain book, if you hear someone talking about it, give me a call, or I'll give you a copy of the book to give them.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Now you've got people that know you, like you, trust you, introducing you to people that know them, like them, and trust them.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: Yeah.

Paul: You're brilliant as always. All right. Thank you.

Dean: I think this is ... I think we hatched ourselves an evil scheme here.

Paul: Yeah, it's all of the same thing, but I would say there are at least a few evil schemes in there that I am very excited about implementing.

Dean: Yeah. Me too. You could press send on email today even.

Paul: Yeah, yes, exactly, so I can send an email today. I can send the stuff to the printer for the bootcampers-

Dean: Golden ticket, yep.

Paul: Facebook campaign, our current campaign ends next week, I can roll that out next week.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Paul: Awesome.

Dean: I like it. Yeah, ask about the birthday campaign.

Paul: Yeah.

Dean: If you want to do postcards, I can introduce you to my postcard guys, because they get all that trigger data for birthdays. You can get all the birthdays within five miles of your place.

Paul: Yep.

Dean: Send a postcard to those people leading up to their birthday.

Paul: All right. Any thoughts on frequency for this kind of thing, so that this doesn't get tired? The idea of gift cards and free months and stuff like that, any thoughts on keeping that-

Dean: I don't know that it gets tired really. I mean, it's like-

Paul: Right.

Dean: Yeah, I mean, really, it's pretty easy to ... It's pretty clean. You don't have to ... Because you're not trying to convince anybody. It's like it's a ... It cuts right to it. It's one of the easiest things.

Paul: Okay, yeah.

Dean: I would experiment. Experiment with it because you've got to think that you're going to be able to have the listing that converts people into it. You know?

Paul: Yep.

Dean: That they're literally going to stay for a long time, and that's really about creating this future oriented vision of where they're headed, and the direction that's going to take a long term approach to get and maintain. Not just-

Paul: All right.

Dean: Let's just go hard for eight weeks and see if you can survive the challenge, you know?

Paul: Yes. All right.

Dean: I love it.

Paul: All right, anything else before we wrap?

Dean: I think that's it. Let me know for sure how it works. Now I know if you're ever at Starbucks ... You get there at 10. I'll readjust and I'll come by and see you one day.

Paul: Yeah, I'm not always there. Basically, while a local marketer, her daughter is in acting classes at the rec center-

Dean: Oh, okay.

Paul: Yeah, but I'm there often enough, but-

Dean: Cool. Crash this marketing conversation, because I love marketing.

Paul: All right, thank you very much, Dean.

Dean: I'll talk to you later. Thanks, bye.

Paul: All right, bye.

Dean: There we have it. Another great episode, and almost a recurring theme. I always love to ask that question of ... Not really the question, but see if the supplies ... That sometimes it's less expensive to get somebody a result than it is to convince them to give you money to get the result.

Listen, if you've got access to something, if your incremental cost of delivering a result for somebody is virtually zero, or very little money, or at the very least, lower than what you're currently paying to get a new customer, it makes total sense for you to figure out a way to use your ability to get the results as a free introduction to a relationship with you.

Especially if it is an ongoing recurring relationship, where the thing that really matters is getting somebody up, running, and locked into place, so that they're going to continue to be a long-term sustaining member, or client of yours, that's paying you money every month for a long, long time.

Sometimes the best way to get those people is by referrals from the people who are already your best clients, because they're hanging around with people who are just like them, or they're hearing conversations of people who are like them, so there's great opportunity for you to give them the opportunity to get somebody a gift, whether it's a gift card or a free month, or some very specifically defined outcome that they can get.

I think that I'll keep you posted on what happens. We hatched that email that he can send. I know he's an action-taker, and he'll get that out. I look forward, I think good things are going to happen with a focus of just getting people results, and getting people to introduce you to people who need that result.

At the very ... If you want to start introducing it to new people outside of the people that you're already helping, what better, easy way to get somebody started than to offer to get them some result, without them having to pay anything. I look forward to seeing what happens with Paul, and he lives right here in Winter Haven, so I can check in and keep you posted on what happens.

In the mean time, a couple of things that we talked about that might be a good fit for you, if you want to orchestrate a referral program, you hear me talk about the world's most interesting postcard, and that's a really great system that we have to orchestrate referrals among the people who know you, like you, trust you.

It's especially perfect if you have a business that is relationship based, that you've got a couple of hundred people that are ongoing clients, that could refer other people, but check out: theworldsmostinterestingpostcard.com, and you'll see what we're talking about, theworldsmostinterestingpostcard.com.

I have a whole report that explains the psychology of why this referral approach works at gettingreferrals.com, and that's a 16 page really great explanation of my philosophy and practice of getting and orchestrating referrals.

As always, if you want to join the conversation here, you can go to morecheeselesswhiskers.com, and download a copy of the More Cheese, Less Whiskers book, and if you'd like to be a guest on the show, just click on the Be a Guest link, and maybe we can get on and hatch some evil schemes for you. That's it, have a great week, and I will talk to you next time.