Ep092: Thomas Arrigo

Today on the MoreCheeseLessWhisker.com podcast we're talking with Thomas Arrigo and Thomas has one of the best book titles for a lead generator, The Six Figure Woodworker.

It was the title we came up with together on a book title brainstorming call we did for our 90-Minute Books service, and today we talked about the whole process of using a book like that as the beginning of a relationship.

We spoke about selecting an audience; people who are aspiring full-time woodworkers or people who want to make more money with their woodworking, then how to build a community, and how he can lead into an academy type situation where he's able to help people set up their six figure woodworking business. We ended by talking about the end game, and the millionaire woodworker…

You can see how this is all about speaking to the right person. You just need to say the words Six Figure Woodworker and people are crystal clear on what it's about and what they will get from it.

There’s a lot in this show and we covered all the bases of the before unit including the role of a podcast and getting the context right. We had a really great conversation & you’re going to get a lot from it.


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Transcript - More Cheese Less Whiskers 092

Dean: Thomas Arrigo, this call is being recorded.

Thomas: Nice. How are you doing, Dean?

Dean: I'm fantastic. How do I say your last name?

Thomas: Ariggo.

Dean: Thomas Ariggo. Okay.

Thomas: That's good. I know, I was going to do the Dean Jackson, but I was like he's probably going to screw up my name, and it will sound funny.

Dean: Welcome. Whatever I don't know, I always like to ask.

Thomas: Nice.

Dean: I'm excited. I've got my evil scheme hatching pad here and I'm fully prepared to hatch some evil plans.

Thomas: I'm excited, too.

Dean: Tell me what's going on.

Thomas: First off, I'm super grateful to even be able to talk to you. This is great. Let's see. We talked one other time when you were doing the 90 Minute Book title.

Dean: The title, yeah. Okay, now I remember. Right, right.

Thomas: Yeah. We came up with Six Figure Woodworker.

Dean: Love that. That's a good one.

Thomas: I guess a little of my background is I've done woodworking mostly all my life. I've had a couple of my own businesses and worked at other places. I've always been able to out produce the people that sell. Then, I guess as I got exposed to more and more businesses, I realized there's no magical business that works awesome, that everybody's always having problems, and stuff. So, I figured ... Yeah, like, the illusion was broken, like "Aw, really."

Dean: I keep waiting. I think I'm 80 episodes in or something and I still haven't found a business without problems.

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: I continue to search.

Thomas: I figured while I'm running machines mindlessly sometimes, I would just start learning everything. That was back when Tim Ferris' book came out and everything, so I'm like, I just consumed as much podcast and marketing information as possible. Then, I always ran into the blue collar/white collar thing where nobody wants to hear your aspects on stuff. They just want you to go run the machines and whatnot.  It always like "Well, it's a great idea, but maybe we'll figure that out later." Then, about three years ago, I was shop foreman of a timber frame home company and I ended up getting carbon monoxide poisoning a bunch of times, and we didn't realize for a while. So, at that point I was like, you know, I've got all this great information in my head. I just need to frame it in a better way so that people will actually ... Instead of me just telling them stuff, they'll pay me to listen to it and implement it. That was in the Frank Kern high-end consulting days, so, I consumed a lot of that. Man, I really loved doing collaborative close calls with people, because it got them excited and brightened up their day as far as "Oh wow, there's all these possibilities I had no idea about."

Dean: Opportunities, right.

Thomas: Yeah, because I find that most woodworkers, they build the skill and everything, and then they fall into business. So, it's not like they started out to keep everything business minded. It's just like, oh, somebody wants to pay me, now what do I do? I've got to make this work for itself. I wanted to be a conduit to woodworking business owners of relevant information for business, and track sales marketing, and all that, and just a way to organize their business better, and that's where I came up with the Perfect Woodworking Business formula. That was what was kind of your Eight Profit Activator and then a framework of making sure that the product is build able and sellable, instead of just being "I'm a woodworker and I make whatever."

That's where I wanted to ... I got most of the information for the book, but I'm realizing that I really need to work on the backend and the deliverable, and I've really been ... For a while, I was struggling with the, I would always go straight to what is it and then how instead of how you started doing the who not how.  I always liked the way that you explained stuff of ... You never explained how to do it necessarily, just be what it is and how it works.

Dean: Yeah. Right.

Thomas: Not the in depth-ness. I realized I would always try to go into the how and get mired down in the weeds, so, that's been a pretty good thing lately.

Dean: Yeah, that's what will happen.

Thomas: Then, I also like your move scenario there, because like I said, Yeah, because the collaborative close calls were always the best thing, but it was just getting the next step past that and how I can help the people, but more in a way of how I'm going to like doing it all the time, so that it happens, because my ... Colby is a 5447, so, I like a lot of stuff and I change my mind a lot. I seem to cycle through things and always come back. So, that's where I was like "Oh"-

Dean: But, you're right in the middle. You're like a project manager. That's the perfect thing. You're right-

Thomas: Yeah. That's where ... I love coming up with the ... Yeah, I love coming up with the plan to make it work, but I don't like managing it on a daily basis, but it's like I have enough knowledge of so many random things that whenever I talk to somebody it's like, "Oh yeah, here's this thing from over here that works totally amazing."

Dean: Right. I got it.

Thomas: I really want to shine the spotlight on being able to put myself in that kind of a situation to help people. So, I figured that would be a good thing to work out with you.

Dean: Okay.

Thomas: I realized listening to your Market Maker stuff for the real estate people that in woodworking businesses in the beginning, I was like, well who is actually making money that wants to make more money? I was like, well, maybe people that are teaching classes. Originally, I wanted to ... Back a bunch of years ago, just put videos of making woodworking stuff and be in the ... Now, it's just overloaded with YouTube where it's like unbearable to watch the stuff. So, I wanted to make a Netflix of woodworking with a how it's made kind of deal of solid information. But, do it in a Market Maker way of here's a list of places where you can take classes physically and then here's some online stuff. Then, connect people that are teaching classes with those people that want a class guide every month or something. Those two ideas, they seem to always be separate in my mind. I'm like, they're servicing the same people, it's just ... I don't know, you know?

Dean: You start to think of like, who is your target audience, you know? We start to think about what you're able to do for people. Whenever I start thinking about something like this, I always start with what is it that you actually have that you can exchange with somebody that's going to create a transformation for them, a transformation from ... And, that could be anything in terms of that you're putting out there that it's about making money, because when you name something Six Figure Woodworker the implied promise of that is that you have a way to show somebody how to make six figures as a woodworker. Is that true, first off? Do you have that formula?

Thomas: Yes, because most of the time people follow a range that are just "Oh, I have some stuff up on my website" and it's a terrible experience to even try to buy something, so, it's mostly an exposure to that and then the vending machine idea of like, listen, instead of just waiting for organic traffic to buy a tool that you make that's two or three hundred dollars, we can run some ads and do conversions, and you only need to sell a few hundred of those a year.

Dean: I love it. When you look at this then, who would be the ideal candidate for you? Who is the right person?

Thomas: In my mind, it's two different people. So, there are people that make woodworking hand tools, because they're all small batch toolmakers, we'll call it, and those people are becoming pretty successful, because hand tool woodworking is coming around pretty good. Like I said, so those are toolmakers. Then, there are also people that feel the need to have to produce content, so, they either have a physical place to teach or they're like trying on YouTube and stuff. So, that's where I wanted to try and bring in modern, like, hey, you can make a membership site, and you can make a digital product instead of just jamming really long videos on YouTube. That's where I realized at least people that have an actual school or someone ... because, there's a lot of small shops where people teach you how to make a chair for five days and they charge a few thousand dollars, to go to their place. Like, a group or five or something.

So, those people, that's where I was like "Oh, well the Market Maker thing would work pretty well in addition", because then I would build a list of people that want to learn and build classes. Then, I can connect them with the businesses of like, well, here. We already have a list of people that want to take classes and these are the classes they're interested in.

Dean: I gotcha. So, let me ... I'm a little unclear about the toolmakers, how they fit into ... It seems like that's a different business.

Thomas: Everybody as they start, people basically collect tools to make ideas. Most of the time, people don't get very far in the building the project phase. They get in the buying nice tools and then puttering around to build the skills.

Dean: Okay.

Thomas: So, people spend a lot of money acquiring, like let's say a wooden hand plane is like between $100 and $300, and usually you have 10 or 12 of them. Or, many more. People spend a lot of money. They're irrationally passionate about collecting tools than using tools.

Dean: Yeah. Right, right.

Thomas: That's where there's a lot of people that started making them and they actually fell into it, of like, oh wow, now I'm a plane maker because this is interesting to me, and I have a back order, and people really want to buy them.

Dean: I gotcha. Okay. So, I look at that, I would look at that as something supplemental to the promise. The audience of being a six figure woodworking business, so, when I look at this, the person ... What it kind of implies to me, if I look at that Six Figure Woodworker, it seems like what the ... It's the person who maybe has the tools, has the workshop, and is a woodworker, or aspire to make the leap to, because maybe they're the person who is doing woodworking on the weekends and after their regular job, but then they would like to make the leap to being a full-time in their own business.

Thomas: Yeah. That's where, like I said, it's like two separate ideas, but I feel they're kind of connected, but originally-

Dean: I think that's got to be the ... That feels like the core right there. If I look at it, that one seems simple with the promise, right? On that journey, they're going to need and want to be exposed to different tools and different opportunities there, so, I would kind of keep that in a way that your core thing would be in gathering the community of people who want to be Six Figure Woodworkers. Yeah, because that's the core of everything. I think it's interesting, this ... Not that you're a really long fact finder, but the fact finder is the longest of your Colby things, right? 544 ... Oh, no seven, if you're hands on, right? Actually, I've never-

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: ... I've never met anybody who is a seven implemented. That's interesting.

Thomas: Yeah, everybody I talk to you, they're like "That is a really unique one."

Dean: But, it makes total sense. But, it makes total sense that you're a woodworker, I mean, that makes all the sense in the world, because it's hands on implementing stuff. That makes a lot of sense. But, your fact finding, I think the temptation is to try and see what all could encompass around this. You're going beyond ... You know, starting with the full vision of what it all could be, like with the Market Making and all of that stuff, without the core foundation of it. I think it seems like the core foundation of it is people who are aspiring to make money as a woodworker and there's something nice about Six Figure Woodworker is that that is a nice aspirational number for most woodworkers and it's attractive even if they don't necessarily feel like they need to make six figures. If they're thinking "Well, if I just made $50,000 a year, I'd be happy.”

Thomas: Yeah, it's not like oh, you're going to be a millionaire-

Dean: Right.

Thomas: ... It's like a doable number that you can replace your own salary and that's the thousands of fan bases of, you know, it only takes a bunch of small numbers to add up over time.

Dean: Right, and that's the kind of thing where there's a lot of those. There's a lot of those people, I would imagine, and that's pretty good to get to, but if you look at it now, if we take that one core thing, that one avatar of our aspiring woodworker, what is it that you would be able to do with them right now that would help them become a Six Figure Woodworker or a full-time, self-employed, self-business woodworker?

Thomas: That's where I got to, because I was outlining all that for the book and then I was like, man, I don't really have anything to ... Not what to teach, but how to teach it in a good way. If I go ahead with the book, I'll have no backend, you know?

Dean: So, you're like "Okay, that's a great title" and you're like "Yes! People would love that" and then we're like, okay, do you know how to do it?

Thomas: Well, no. No, I mean, I have all of that. It's just how to convey it, but that's where I give them a framework of not just ... because, a lot of people just take any job or they’ll start justifying, like, I need to buy a tool for this job and that. I go through explaining that they're actually a manufacturer and the medium that they manufacture in is wood. Then, you need to think of it as a product that can be shippable that you've made ahead of time, that you have a known price and a known shipping cost. Therefore, you can have your numbers down so that you can make a proper sales funnel and collect people's information, because in that realm, they're still very far behind in the direct marketing where they're barely even collecting emails and stuff, and just making a rudimentary website with a PayPal link to buy something, so, there's a lot of room for improvement and fixing it.

It's just that I want to be like, "Well, you need to run some Facebook ads and this and that." That's where it really got with me, it's like man, Dean really explains it in a way that doesn't require you to get into what a Facebook pixel is, and this and that, and just the vending machine idea. That's where with the collaborative goals if everything was great, people would be like "Oh, this is great. I have so much stuff to implement, it's going to be awesome". At that time, I was still trying to go for straight consulting and they'd be like "I don't understand how it would still help", but that's where now I've been doing a bunch of stuff with Ed Dale, and he made his Niche Style Academy where it's just instead of me having to lay out information all the time, it's like, just ask me questions of what you need this week. Then, let's use the SCRUM method to make sure that you're getting stuff done when you have shop time and not just standing in the shop going "What am I going to do next?" And, getting overwhelmed.

Dean: I think this is perfect in that kind of thing where you took somebody through an academy type of situation where the outcome is that it's 90 days and you go through this process, and out the other end of the process, you've got an outcome of you've chosen your core product, you've got your methodology for a building that store, you've got everything connecting the dots there. That's a pretty ... That would be a win for people, right?

Thomas: Yeah. Yeah, that's where I was ... You were talking about your Email Mastery on a couple of podcast episodes ago, and how you were saying that you start a new class every month and it took a call, just a conference call for people, and I was like that's really ... Like I said, I want to be more in the move space instead of sitting in front of the computer trying to make PowerPoint space of like, oh, and...

Dean: Yeah, but when you look at ... The Email Mastery is built around a core curriculum. There are eight core modules that are already created in there, right, so people can go through those at their pace or jump into whatever one is the most relevant for them. The live calls that I do are just that. They are wordsmithing and working with people individually, but it's all supported by the core curriculum there. If you were to think about, what would be ... It's very similar to what you're kind of telling people to do, you know?

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: Part of the thing is to have a process, or a curriculum, or a roadmap, or a step by step way for people to go from just doing odd job woodworking, or taking what comes, or doing random things to building on a foundation of having a core product.

Thomas: Yeah, that's what I wanted to lay out in the book, because I pretty much ... I modeled your Eight Profit Activator score card in woodworking terms-

Dean: Perfect, yes.

Thomas: Then, I'm making another scorecard of just the formula, I call it, where it's like the same method but then in production, and then all that. Even the scorecard, I just did a few tests just from my Instagram feed and you could tell how it really resonated with people, because they saw the future and where they were on the scale.

Dean: That's exactly right. They get a sense of where they are. They know where they are.

Thomas: Yeah. That's where Ed had to do the Winter Haven method. So, I would write back and people would respond like gangbusters, because they were like "Yeah, this great", you know? That's where I was like all right, I really need to hammer down what to give them. That's when I figured the book could lay out the roadmap and then it would just be an implementation of all those ideas, if it really resonates with them, you know?

Dean: Yeah, I love it. Because, the book is really going to get you in front of the right people. That's a no-brainer. You put the book in front of somebody who is aspiring to do it, that's going to be ... You're going to get the right people. So, no doubt about that. Now, if you'll-

Thomas: Then, if they just keep the book a what instead of how to do it just to what level of information-

Dean: That's exactly it. That's why we do the 90 Minute Book is that the thing about the book, and you know about the Eight Profit Activators now, so, the book is 100% solely a profit activator two tool. The only job of work, as Ed would say of the book, is to get an invisible prospect to raise their hand and become a visible prospect. 'Cause, you can't get a list of people who are aspiring to full-time woodworkers, right? They're holed up in their garage in the evenings and on the weekends, and people tell them "You should sell these wings, you should do this other business. You're really good at this." They love it and they can't imagine that people get paid or that it's a business like that, right? So, it's an escape, and they do it. They like it, but then it comes ... I would really love it if I could make a business out of this, so, just the fact that the Six Figure Woodworker is even possible is a great attractor. Just like the Four Hour Work Week was the same thing. Like, wow, I want that.

Thomas: Yeah, that's what I loved. It wasn't I'd only want to work four hours, it was like oh, here ... This lays out a whole picture in my mind of how to make this happen without it being crazy overwhelming.

Dean: That's exactly it. If this guy can get it down to four hours, surely I could get it down to 20, or 30. That would be ... And, there's the thing. I think that when you're laying out a promise like that, or an aspiration, a destination Six Figure Woodworker, they're like "Wow, if I could just replace my job income, that would be fantastic." So, you get that person right there, so the only ... You don't have to do everything in the book, the whole thing about the book is to conceptually introduce that concept, the idea of what it could take to be a Six Figure Woodworker, and as if you ... The way that we look at it is that once somebody asks for the book, the book has 80% done its job. That's the whole thing. The title, the fact that you have a book, and you've got a way for them to get it, that's all you need to trigger that mechanism, right? Because, for somebody to ask for a book, it doesn't matter and they don't care whether the book is 50 pages or 250 pages. You kept trying to go too deep.

Thomas: Right. With it, like, just giving it nada.

Dean: Like, not having too much information, but just trying to keep it as a cohesive thing rather than just seeing the broad strokes. Yeah. You just need to introduce the premise, you need to describe what the destination is, you need to show examples of what that looks like, how people are doing it kind of thing. Then, it's always a lead in to your next steps, right? Which is where if you've ultimately you've got this academy to show people over 90 days how to go through and build their Six Figure Woodworking business or the foundation for it. That's a really good ... That would be a really good start, you know?

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. That's where I was wondering if I should do some case studies or something like that-

Dean: Do you have any case studies?

Thomas: Hm?

Dean: Do you have any case studies? Have you already helped people do this?

Thomas: Just in introducing the concepts or giving some information, but never following through in a long time. I did it with myself and when I started to get a little better, I started manufacturing clothespins with a stainless steel spring that a guy in Vermont was making. He made all the springs and they were two dollars each and I set up a whole sales funnel for that in the free book style, so I give two clothespins free with shipping and it was like half the people that got them bought them, and it worked out pretty good. I couldn't even make them fast enough. But, it was all to show like, look, I just run a Facebook ad for $10 a day and people are buying clothespins like gangbusters and that's just a clothespin for two dollars. As long as you just ... That's when I started coming up with the method of like, oh, as long as it's shippable, and it's a product, and something that I can work against instead of being "I'm a woodworker, I make all sorts of stuff, what do you need?"

Dean: There are so many things. I think if you were to show just the possibilities, right? Just to inspire people by what other people are doing, because they might not even know that something like that's possible. If you start with something like those, like little ... Those little things, like the clothespins, or things like ... I know there are people that make axes, real wood axes that are really high-end. They're beautifully crafted, painted, and in combination with somebody who makes the ax blades, you know, and it's a very high-end thing. I've seen other people who make desks that are handcrafted wooden desks that are really masterpieces that sell for upwards of $30-$40,000 for a desk.

Thomas: Yeah, a lot of those places are just small places that figured that thing out, but they're just kind of just doing it and getting mired down into doing all the time.

Dean: Yeah, I got it. That depends on whether somebody wants to be a craftsman or whether they want to be a manufacturer kind of things, because there's different things. I think if you led people through a process of self-discovery of finding the right fit woodworking business model where ... because, some people, you look at ... I would imagine that the clothespins would be a high volume, low satisfaction.

Thomas: Yeah, that's what happened to me. I ended up buying a CNC machine and everything, and I was like, "I'm making a large profit, but it's getting really boring, and miring me down."

Dean: Yeah.

Thomas: Tedious, right. Yeah, yeah.

Dean: So, that you're constantly ... But, for some people that are 789 follow through as opposed to implementers, that may be the perfect thing for them. They just want to know what to do and do it to the best of their ability, you know? Then, the other people where somebody's a ... And, it's funny how you may be in a situation where as part of the academy, you may walk people through a process of finding the right woodworking business for them based on their Colby too, right?

Thomas: Yeah, totally. Yeah, because you learned, you know?

Dean: Yeah. If they're high quick starts, they may like the idea of doing original works, and constantly doing those things if they're high fact finder follow throughs, they may enjoy creating a system.

Thomas: Yeah, that's like a restoration person or the people that make period furniture, and they spend forever taking photographs and analyzing the size of the period piece.

Dean: Yes.

Thomas: And, reproducing it, and it takes like two years, but they sell for like hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Dean: Right. Exactly. I think there's so much interest in that. So many interest different ways to slice that, you know?

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: When I look at this, what I'm looking for is you've got a crystal clear target audience in the people who are aspiring to be woodworkers, like employed, survive, make money with their woodworking, and six figures is a good aspiration, because that's somebody who is taking it seriously. Even if they don't ultimately plan on getting to that level, but even if they do go beyond, it's like, that opens up for the millionaire woodworker, you know?

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: Right, but no. That's the kind of thing, you may find people who go through that, that that's where they ultimately want to end up. You may find somebody who starts out in your Six Figure Woodworker and then really falls in love with this whole idea, and falls in love with the marketing of it, and the whole thing, and goes on to become a millionaire woodworker, you know?

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: You ought to register that domain name too, if that's available.

Thomas: Oh, I already did.

Dean: Millionaire Woodworker? You got it? Okay.

Thomas: Oh, no. Not yet. I will do that right now. Another thing was I figured I could also do like podcast interviews of either more Cheese and Less Whisker collaborative close file or just an interview of tell us about your business just so that other people can have a better framework in their mind of "Well, this guy did it and he just sells a couple hand planes that are $400 and he works on it on the weekends, and he's doing this", you know?

Dean: Yes.

Thomas: Just to keep building upon it.

Dean: Yes. That's exactly it. That's what you want. So, when you look at that now, that's part of the thing, if your Profit Activator 2 is the book, the Six Figure Woodworker, that's a great ... This has all the right things. It gets people to raise their hand and say "I want that" and what I also say to people, imagine if you’re landing page, imagine if somebody the moment they press "Yes, send me the book." That they're magically transported to your workshop and they poke their head in, and they say, "Hey, I'm here about the Six Figure Woodworker". What would you say then? Now, we're in Profit Activator Three.

Thomas: Yeah, that's where usually I ask if they already sell something, if they already have a product or what they're thinking of selling, because then they kind of ... Usually the people reply with whatever they're making. Like I said, there will be a lot of people that just write a whole bunch of stuff and it's like, this is awesome.

Dean: Yeah. That's cool. Then, your offer is then, is what are the ways that you could help somebody. Do you have a sense of what you could ... Like, all that work and all that thought that you were putting into the book is what I would put into the academy.

Thomas: Yeah, that's where I was breaking the who or the how ... I do the how and what instead of the who. So, that was where I introduced the idea of the SCRUM method for time management, that way you get more done in the amount of time that you're in the shop. Then, working through the actual having a marketing plan and then your work environment, so it's cohesive. Like I said, I laid it out by scorecard method, so it's like oh, it takes a long time to get started, and hard to get into the flow state of work, and then ... Or, it's everything's organized, I can get right into flow and start manufacturing, then scalability. I sort of explain the whole concept of scalability that way, because people will work themselves up to the ceiling of scalability and then just freak out, because they're like "I can't make any more of this and I've already dedicated a lot of space and tools to this."

Dean: Yeah. Do you have a list of aspiring woodworkers right now?

Thomas: Yes. Kind of that I've built, because most of them, they just started showing up on Instagram like in the last two years, so that's a really good medium for woodworkers, so, it started ... I was on there as a pretty early adopter, so, I have on my personal account like 2500 people that are pretty much woodworkers, then I just reposted small toolmakers tools as they started accounts. That was best woodworking tools. That account has 12,000 people, because any time somebody would open their account, I would reshare it with a lot of people, and they would get a lot of followers right off. I'm in contact with a lot of them. There's a guy that makes a wooden bench and the wooden bench costs three to five thousand dollars each. He makes enough where that's all he does now and then he's like "I realized I can teach people. If I have a class, I have three people come to my shop and they make their own bench for $3,000-"

Dean: Right.

Thomas: "And, I just help them." I was like yeah, then also, you should sell the plans so the people can at least have the plan, and then you can make some online content of how to put more fixtures onto your bench, and this, and that. He was all excited about it and it's just having the framework to talk with the people, to build up inertia for them to be able to follow through instead of just putting out the next fire as the next day comes up, and losing all that momentum.

Dean: Yeah. I think there's a good ... That would be a great podcast episode. Right? Like, sharing those kinds of stories with people. People who are ... All the different ways people are doing woodworking. That would be a great-

Thomas: Yeah. I have enough of a list of that to have a year's worth of podcasts episodes.  I've always wanted to do a podcast, but I've always gotten mired down in the not just talking on the phone system of the "Oh, I've got to be able to record it and then this and that", you know?

Dean: Oh, yeah. No, no, no. So, that's the whole thing. Yeah, you need the ... Just talk. That's the way it’s done to help people do the podcasts, you know? Just the way I do them, because you know this one, I just dial in and we're already recording, so, there's no editing required, and as soon as I hang up, that will automatically go to my team that puts everything together, puts it up on iTunes, gets it transcribed and then, those emails, all those emails I send are coming from-

Thomas: Yeah. That's what resonated with me too, because I like ruminate over like, oh, I should make some kind of an article or email in order to tell people this idea that's going through my head before it disappears, and it's like ... I'm like oh, I'm not catching on as they're coming through.

Dean: Yeah. You've got an outlet like your podcast there, you've got the total opportunity. Man, you've got all the makings of a really great syndication, you know? I think the first step would be ... Do you have email communications with these people?

Thomas: Yeah.

Dean: So, what kind of ... How often would they hear from you? How often do you email?

Thomas: Not that often. It's the same thing. It's the content on my end. It goes through my head and I'm like oh, I have a Trello board just filled with ideas that I'm ... I should at least write this down, but then it's the coming back around to it, and all that. That's where I got to the point where I was like, well, I got the book, but I need a good way, a framework that works with the way I work, that way I can follow through on giving the information in a timely manner in order to make it really happen. That's where I resonated with the move method, I'm like whoa, when I'm engaged in a conversation it works fine. But, when I'm sitting there, I can't write an article or something. It's just like a mental block, you know?

Dean: Yeah, that's it. It's really so much of it is about setting up these contexts that allow you to create the content. So, a podcast is that. A podcast is a context that allows me to have these conversations within a framework of we're talking about the Eight Profit Activator and the catalyst is your business. But, everything we're saying is being recorded, and we've got that now as an asset to draw from, to be able to create all the articles that I'll write, because you don't need to write anything if you have said it, you know?

Thomas: Yeah, exactly.

Dean: I think, boy, it's just now, you just need to put in some pathway for people to participate, you know?

Thomas: Yeah, that's one of my things, I was like I have all this information, I just need to create an interaction with people that into that sort of-

Dean: How many are on that list right now that you could email?

Thomas: Probably like 40 or something. That was just from doing the scorecard online Instagram, but it was enough of a response where I was like, oh, paid advertising will bring enough people in, but I really need to work on my Profit Activator Five so that I can have a good number four to make an irresistible offer. That was what I was really struggling with the framework of how am I going to deliver this content in a way that is easy for them, but it's also easy for me?

Dean: I think that part of the thing is to start working with some people and walk them through the process and record it all as you go, you know? Even if you were just doing it as a super small group mentoring program, it's not about maximizing your money on this. It's about creating the assets that you've got now that other people are going to benefit from. So, if you start having ... If you're are even out of 40, if you were to send an email to them, mentioning that you're starting a Six Figure Woodworker academy next month, or a pilot program for it, and you're looking for this kind of specific person, what would be the characteristics or the perimeter of ... What would have to be true of somebody that would make them a good candidate for you to help them?

Thomas: I guess it's just the being open one ... Yeah, they want to aspire for it or at least be open to the idea that it's a possibility that's achievable and that they could apply it in what they do. Like I said, a lot of people, they just get mired into the making of their stuff, and then the business part is a side aspect of it, or a problem almost rather than ... That's where I wanted to try and frame it as "Well, here's the things that will come up, and here's the things that you should think about that will help you in the future" rather than having to put out fires all the time.

Dean: Yep. Yeah.

Thomas: But, I guess I'd have to explain more of the actually, the concept, like you're saying just so that it's a better picture in their mind so they know what to try to achieve.

Dean: Yeah. There's the thing. It's like, when you look at it that the part of the real benefit is that they will have a ... Are you saying that for everybody that they'll at least have a product-based income stream? That's part of it, right? Rather than just doing commissions or doing hired jobs.

Thomas: Yeah. What it is a lot of people, they want to do commission work and they get stuck in it, because that's like 50's era cabinetry of "All right, I've got to work with the designer, read plans, make an estimate, and do a lot of work ahead of time, and then hope I get paid later after I make it and the customer changes some stuff." because, there's really no information on how to run or set up woodworking businesses, or even do pricing that are any recent at all, so that's where there's a real void in it. People just mimic what they see and it seems this mimicking of terrible ways of losing money, having people go "Oh, I can just buy that at Raymour and Flanigan for the same price" instead of really working there, using 80/20, they go listen, there's people that will want you to make custom furniture for the whole house and you can just do that, if you just find the one right person instead of dealing with all these price people on the low end of the scale, you know?

Dean: Yeah. That's great. This seems like, wow, there's such a ... There's probably a pretty ... How big is the community, do you think, of people who are woodworkers?

Thomas: It's fairly large. I just use Instagram numbers, most of the people who are toolmakers and woodworkers, they have 10-15,000 followers. There's a guy that does trim for houses and he's really good. That account has over 150,000 subscribers. It's not like there's 20 people in it. There are a lot of people in it and I also liked it, because it's a physical thing. The world is becoming very digital dementia style, so I also wanted to introduce woodworking as a flow state builder, that way you become more tactical and stuff. That's why a lot of it is going back to hand tools and stuff like that, so more and more people are entering space, and there's a very big void of information that's recent.

Dean: You can't digitize a rocking horse.

Thomas: Right. That's what I keep saying. Well, they can use the CNC machine to cut the pieces, but they don't have a robot that assembles it perfectly and can regrain, and all that other stuff. There's always going to be the need for that.

Dean: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I'm seeing the whole blueprint of it falling into place here. I think that if you just ... I think that certainly getting the word out about your book, you probably could pull in some of the favors with your toolmakers, all the ones, the Instagram ones that you spread the word for them when they started their account, that they make be willing to post up your book?

Thomas: Yeah. Then, also to just ... Like I said, that's where I was thinking, like, oh, if I interviewed them, then it at least that would expose them, and then ... because, like I said with the collaborative close, it was more of a prescribing idea and that's where the best information would come out. That's where I was like, oh, I can't really just out of cold thought come up with all this stuff. It has to be more of a conversation in order to build the content.

Dean: Yep. It will be a really good thing for you to model is what I'm doing with Listing Agent Lifestyle.

Thomas: Yeah, I just started listening to that. That's good stuff.

Dean: Okay. So, there's the model in that ... That book, those are the right words for the right people. Those are the right words for real estate agents and the book itself is a 90 minute book, and it just outlines the eight elements of the Listing Agent Lifestyle. When you think about what are the elements, or the things of being a Six Figure Woodworker, what are the things that they have to have in place kind of thing, that those elements now become the context, the framework for all of the episodes of the Listing Agent Lifestyle podcast that I do. It's the container for all of the stuff. So, when you're talking about what would be involved in being a Six Figure Woodworker, that's what we're looking for.

Thomas: Nice. Yeah, so, it would be along the lines of what kind of product do you make, what is the scalability of it ... Yeah, nice.

Dean: Yeah. So, you're sharing with people how ... The things that keep people down, you can't just do commissions or do, I mean, you think about leverage and you're thinking about the products, and you're thinking about scaling, and building some support, and that kind of thing, you know?

Thomas: Excellent.

Dean: I think that kind of gets it all rolling and that becomes your flagship, your Profit Activator three flagship. That's your long term followup. You're building this community of people who want to be Six Figure Woodworkers and you have their attention now, because you're giving them valuable, inspirational content from people who are doing it, and people who are supporting people who are doing. Toolmakers or ... So, they're learning all the way along being inspired, and that becomes then a carrier for everything that you want to do where you're able to then invite them to your Six Figure Woodworker academy.

Thomas: Nice. Yeah, and then eventually just ... That's where I liked how you do the blueprint. I went to one with Ed in Portland where it was just three days of going through, he was doing SCRUM at the time, but it was like SCRUM for doing your publications, and I really liked that. I was like this is perfect. If I could just meet with a couple woodworkers and then everyone could at least meet each other, because that was the other thing, was overcoming the isolation of being a sole entrepreneur in a shop and not having a network of people to even go "Oh, this guy charged ... They want me to do this for so little."

Dean: No, that's exactly it.

Thomas: Like, don't work with those kinds of people.

Dean: Right. Where do you live?

Thomas: I live in Buffalo, New York.

Dean: Okay. Yeah, so, you're so right. All of that stuff is so model-able. It's certainly easy for ... I see all of the pieces of it. So, you just need to gathering that audience-

Thomas: Yeah, that's what really resonated with me. That's where I was at like a dead end point, like, I know I can get people and I can help people, but I need to not do it in a jittery way that won't be helpful or something like that. I really need to concentrate on the deliverable, because everything else seems to.

Dean: Part of the thing, every time you're creating, you don't need to think about creating your academy or your course as creating it for hundreds of people or thousands of people. You need to create it with the thought process of helping one person.

Thomas: Yeah, that's very true.

Dean: Maybe that's the one thing that you need is to do your one study right now and you might find that person within your 40. If you just send a message to them and you say "I'm putting together a new pilot program and I'm looking to work with someone on building a Six Figure Woodworking business" ...

Thomas: Nice. Yeah, that's what I kept trying to make it a scalable thing in itself.

Dean: You've got to start out right. You've got to have the core first. That's the thing. You've got to start small so that you know that you're building it in real time for somebody real, you know? As you're going, you're documenting everything that you're doing along the way.

Thomas: That makes a lot of sense. Nice.

Dean: Yeah. Very cool. So, what are your action steps here? What do you think you...?

Thomas: Well, first off, get the MillionaireWoodworker.com, and then work-

Dean: You've got to think ahead.

Thomas: Yeah, yeah. I'm totally going to fix that. Then, yeah, I think I'll contact the people that were interested in the scorecard previously and work on making a small case study.

Dean: Especially the ones that they found it helpful or you can see that they have the aspiration of where they want to be. Then, you even maybe could just email them and say, "Hey, would you like to work with me on creating a Six Figure Woodworking business?" That might be the simplest way to get going.

Thomas: Just an email that to people on the list?

Dean: Right. That's exactly it. Now you've got somebody who is interested in this and it's so much for either for you to create something when you're creating it for a real person, and there's that whole accountability of it. There's the ... It's easier to stay motivated as you're creating something rather than just kind of holing up in your cabin in the woods trying to come up with the curriculum before you present it to the world, right?

Thomas: Yeah, because it was always like just an ethereal thing of, oh, this is not ... I can't get any further, because it's not ... Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Even from that scorecard, the response of a few people, like they really got it, and then they were like "What can I do to make this go further?" One guy was a third generation woodcarver and he was like "Yeah, business is super slow, but I don't want to leave the family business of it, and I can tell that there's room for improvement based on the scorecard", you know?

Dean: Yeah. Well, there's the one. That's the thing. Start with that.

Thomas: Nice.

Dean: Yeah. You've just got to get started, because it's not going away. I mean, woodworking has been around since the beginning of time, right?

Thomas: Yep.

Dean: It's a solid thing; it's not going to be-

Thomas: Yeah, there are so many more generations coming in.

Dean: Yes, and it's something that people really appreciate, you know? There's something about it. So, I think you've gotten something really solid there.

Thomas: Sweet. Thanks.

Dean: Yeah.

Thomas: I really appreciate you talking with me. It really solidified a lot of things, because that's where I was like I have it all there, I just need a clearer way to visual it in my head so that I can make it a follow through rather than just something that I just keep getting stuck up in.

Dean: Yeah. Yeah, that's part of the thing. You just need to build your track record of documented results, right? The reason The Listing Agent Lifestyle works is I've got a 30 year track record of I know how to build a listing as a lifestyle for people, and we've got all the case studies, and tools, and systems that are already proven, you know? So, that's the stage. But, it started out ... I had to, I started out as trying to figure it out for my business, you know?

Thomas: Yeah, that's the same way. Like I said, I would always figure it out, because I would always have to lay people off, because they couldn't sell enough and stuff, and I had ... If I had the situation to apply the knowledge to, it just comes out. But, when it's like all right, list five things that can do some things, it's like ehh, in what context, you know?

Dean: Yes, exactly. Cool.

Thomas: Sweet.

Dean: Well, I enjoyed it. I had a lot of fun. That's-

Thomas: I did, as well.

Dean: You've got something really great here.

Thomas: Sweet. I appreciate it so much, Dean. I'm so grateful.

Dean: Thanks, Thomas. I'll talk to you soon.

Thomas: All right. You have a great day.

Dean: Thanks, bye.

Thomas: Bye-bye.

Dean: There we have it. Another great episode and it was really great, because we really got to cover all the bases. We talked about everything from Profit Activator One, selecting the target market, and Profit Activator two, getting them to raise their hand. And, Profit Activator Three, using a podcast through a flagship as a way to stay in constant communication with them all leading to something where you're able to help people achieve a transformational result. All of that is model-able for your business and it was really cool to hear Thomas talk about the great interactions that he was having with people because of his scorecard. There really is nothing like a scorecard to help people get a great sense of where they are and also give you a sense of how you can help them. So, all very exciting stuff. I can't wait to see what happens, how this all unfolds.

A couple of resources for you if you want to start implementing some of the things that we talked about in here. Of course, we have our 90-Minute Book team standing by ready to help you write a lead generating book for your business and you can go to 90minutebook.com. Download a copy of the 90-Minute Book, which is a perfect example of a 90-minute book. I created it using the exact same team and process that I have standing by for you. We talked about scorecards, a great way for you to get a sense of how the scorecards work is to check out our Profit Activator Scorecard at ProfitActivatorScore.com. It's a simple online process you can go through. It takes you through the eight Profit Activators and you'll be able to see immediately where you stand, where the opportunities are, and what might be slowing you down. Sometimes even just having awareness of what the highest level of each of the elements that would fit for your business are, gives people a sense of place, a sense of where they are. I think you will learn. There will be an instructive process for you at ProfitActivatorScore.com.

As always, if you'd like to continue the conversation here, you can go to MoreCheeseLessWhiskers.com. You can download a copy of the More Cheese Less Whiskers book. If you'd like, if you click on the "Be a guest" link, you could be a guest on the show, and we could hatch some evil schemes for your business.

That's it for this week. Have a great week and I will talk to you next time.